Application of Techniques

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by Matt, Dec 8, 2016.

  1. Matt

    Matt Member



    This is an application of Koryo that I found today. I was taught Koryo by a master who studied primarily ITF, and we perform it the WTF way. The only problem is that basically every application they do here we don't do or we have a different understanding of it completely. Thoughts and opinions? I do realize that many blocks and strikes have multiple purposes.
     
  2. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    The WTF/KKW downward block is directly lifted from Karate. The ITF one is not.

    Choi Hong Hoi modified the blocks while imprisoned. Please note that although Choi made these changes, and probably believed them to be superior, it was motivated by the need to differentiate his TaeKwon-Do from Karate first and foremost.

    Which do you prefer, if any?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2016
  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Absolutely irrelevant to the initial theme. Start a new thread instead of hijacking this one.
     
  4. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Nice demonstration but not very realistic applications in some cases. These applications were not new to me, but also not ones that I train because I find the idea of direct application too literal. Poomsae teaches how to move in principle, rather than exactly what specific tactic or technique to use.
     
  5. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Nice demonstration but not very realistic applications in some cases. These applications were not new to me, but also not ones that I train because I find the idea of direct application too literal. Poomsae teaches how to move in principle, rather than exactly what specific tactic or technique to use.
     
  6. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    As far as I understands koryo, this interpretation is quite different, and a bit weird at some points IMHO. First, even though the current WTF style wants you to do the second side kick as high as you can, the one I've been taught about was to target knee and abdomen to lower the head, then apply the outward knife hand strike to the jaw before final straight punch to the solar plexus, the inward block is merely a ready position, it's a bit out of my mind if the block is used to hit the opponent. Next is the last hand arc followed by the other hand moved to below the armpit (do you know what it actually does?). It's no way a body lift throw, the technique targets the opponent's knee, what that other hand does is to grab the leg (around ankle) from which the hand arc pushes the knee joint to lock movement (or just break that knee joint if you like). Then the low spear hand thrust actually targets groin, not for holding butt. Finally last moves are: high block - low block, knife hand strike - low block, knife hand strike - low block, neck thrust (earlier, it was a neck grab, which I like better actually), again weird interpretation for blocks used for attacking. I can understand, though, as interpretations might be done to fit the movements.
     
  7. Matt

    Matt Member

    AHHHHH this is basically the interpretation that I was taught.
     
  8. Matt

    Matt Member

    Aren't you of lower rank sir? How would you know the applications of every technique in this pattern? I apologize in advance if I am wrong.
     
  9. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Just an observation here - the applications Mario described are the standard definitions of the movements in the poomsae from kukkiwon. That's not to say that's all they can be used for.

    With experience of martial arts for self defence purposes, it slowly becomes clear that there are standard principles at play, and poomsae movements turn up again and again in different guises.

    That is why I say that literal application of poomsae movements sort of misses the point.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
     
  10. Matt

    Matt Member

    Yes, I agree. Poomse were created with an idea in mind, but that doesn't mean it is the only application of a technique. It was mainly the fact that some of the interpretations seemed so far fetched. For me, the big one was the scoop to arc hand knee break. I was always taught this technique was to catch or scoop to foot at the ankle and the arc hand was a strike to the knee. It is very similar to nine shape block which is executed at the ankle. Their interpretation of using it as a throw seemed very unrealistic to me and I see it having little to no merit of the true mindset of the technique.
     
  11. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    I see most of these applications as having the same flaws as most mainstream applications. Single hand techniques, unrealistic attacks etc

    However, it is nice to see people applying a little thought to what they do
     
  12. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Same as Finlay. As for using blocks there are multiple views on how to use them. My 9th Dan Korean teacher taught me that they could be used as strikes when I was a yellow belt while learning Taegeuk 2 Jang. He left no ambiguity in this. If you look at karate this is common knowledge. Another view is that the parry or block occurs during the chamber and the actual block itself is a counter strike. As long as it shuts down, hinder or prevent an attack it can still correctly be labelled "makki"*.

    Personally I commend the people in the clip for thinking outside the box, but I think they have a long way to go in regards of applications.

    *the Kukkiwon textbook Poomsae application for mountain block in pyungwon (hecho santeul makki) is presented as a joint lock against the opponents elbows for instance.
     
  13. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    For a reason. There was a very famous Karateka who claimed that the katas (of which TKD is based) were not intended against trained fighters. It was to be used against a random assailant.
     
  14. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    I am familiar with the quote, I believe it was Anko Ituso who said it. and also familiar with the roots of ITF patterns.

    However, I am not sure what you are getting at with your post.
     
  15. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    You critized the blocks and punching combinations for not working in practice (why you still waiste your time with an art devoting 50% of it's time to patterns is a mystery in and of itself, just do kickboxing then instead) and while this is true against trained attackers, it usually works fine on the random thug, which is what they were intended for.
     
  16. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    OK,

    I agree and disagree on this point. Both TKD and Karate share a lot of misconceptions about the applications of the techniques.

    TKD borrowed borrowed heavily from.the mainstream applications of Karate and therefore also incorporated some of the incorrect applications. The Karate that Anko Ituso was referring to in his quote was not the Karate of block and counter punch.

    That karate was actually a watered down version of Karate that was introduced to schools. As you can imagine, schools and parents would maybe not want children learning arm and neck breaking techniques taught to children. To accommodate this the applications were changed to blocking and punching. This 'children's version' of karate became mainstream and became the root of TKD

    When people talk of random attacks they often imply that the attackers are unskilled or careless etc so anything will work on them. This would be a case of people altering reality to suit their needs. If someone does indeed run from 3 metres away with a single large swinging punch then I guess it is your lucky day as you will.be able to pop.off a block and counter. However, in my experience and that of many people, fights. Don't happen that way don't start from distance, there is not a single attack, it is not always a punch or a kick etc.

    In my own practice and investigation of the patterns I have found a lot more applications to the movement rather than just punch, block and kick.

    Some other practitioners like what I teach/talk about others don't. That is their personal choice.
     
  17. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    Karate was derived from Kung fu. There was always striking in Karate. Joint manipulation was taken out but TKD reincerted it with General Chois Hapkido expert on board in the TKD team.
     
  18. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    The thing with applications of sequences from forms is that you will have as many applications as you have instructors thinking about it. Forms are one of the many things that makes martial arts similar to religions. There are just as many interpretations of forms are there are interpretations of the world's holy books ;)
     
  19. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    That's the awesome thing about forms IMO.
     
  20. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    Yes the patterns show one example of an application or principle. It is up to the student to fully investigate the movements
     
    Gnarlie likes this.

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