Are TKD patterns useless?

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by dojo, Apr 17, 2012.

  1. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Active Member

    When practicing combinations is it not like practicing (mini) forms? You do the technique over and over again to practice when to throw the second or third technique (over and over). There is nothing wrong with doing forms besides...their required for advancement and I don't know of any TaeKwonDo school that only teaches sparring, with any advancement! Master Fahy
  2. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    No, because the technique is totaly different. Different stance, different hand placement, and its a fluid movement. You might slow it down to perfect technique, but even doing that it is not the same as a pattern.

    Im lucky because the guys im with dont take patterns and stuff too seriously, and its a small class, so people with gradings coming up can practice them nearly one on one with the instructor while other people practice technique.
  3. Master Fahy

    Master Fahy Active Member

    Well, If they didn't take the forms/poomse/patterns seriously at our school, they wouldn't test nor think about advancing! If you only care about sparring....."Taekwondo is not the art for you, sorry to say!" Taekwondo, is a martial art which evolves poomse as well as sparring! Master Fahy
  4. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    not just sparing, but a range of skills working towards it too
  5. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    I've quoted my own interpretation, developed by the words of my Master. TexasTKD sums it up brilliantly.
    There are many misconceptions about what is TKD, most will agree that TKD is a self defence. TKD is not a fighting system, unlike kung-fu styles and ringsports like Muay Thai, boxing and MMA. General Choi made it clear that TKD is and will always remain, a system of self defence and moral culture utilised to condition the mind and the body. If anyone doubts the effectiveness of TKD in a fight, may I suggest you ask the people that chose to cross my regularly peaceful path with an aggressive one.....;) It has saved my life on one occasion. One of the reasons behind punching from the hip is to develop power and speed....if you can punch fast from the hip then you'll be like lightning from the chin or chest. Ninjitsu train their hands to come from behind their back! I train my students to kick for the head, it makes a mid level kick easy and quick.
    Good Luck

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    I have heard people say patterns are useless before, this is usually from people who do not understand its importance. The patterns (hyung, kata forms or whatever) contain the important techniques of any martial art that uses them. They ensure that they are practiced even when they are not your favorite techniques. Correct technique ensures that you can get the most amount of speed, precision and power from your techniques so that you can use them in a self defence situation efficiently. Then you only have to hit them once instead of dozens of times.

    Those who criticize patterns and only do sparring and 'alive' training are usually the ones that have inefficient, poor technique. Hyung allow you to practice the basics in 2 dimensions and contrary to some peoples belief they are not meant to represent sparring as a whole but are a way of organizing the techniques and certain combinations in a consistent, standardized way that is relatively easy to remember and practice so that each technique can become instinctive when the need arises.
    Chris J, Ivor and Anthony Hayward like this.
  7. Ivor

    Ivor Member

    love my patterns work, gives me chance to pull my techniques to pieces and start again. also i can have one hell of a workout running them back to back with no breaks in between.
    i've heard too many people say patterns are outdated and hold no relevance in the real world, personnally i think these people have missed the point, i see them as a way to perfect technique, practice sequences of techniques that someone else was kind enough to put together for me, and if you take the time to think about the techniques and their purpose, you realise that they are short sequences of blocks and counter attacks that will work if applied in the right context.
    Chris J likes this.
  8. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    hi there

    in my opionion patterns are the back bone of the art, they will not teach you how to spar as the techniques are different. but they are a record of effective and simple self defence and fighting movements.

    these then have to be trained corrctly. many school don;t do this becasue competitions and gradings don;t require students to have a knowledge f these

    for some further views on forms and applied TKD you can check
    Ivor likes this.
  9. stoneagedinosaur

    stoneagedinosaur New Member

    As I have progressed through my belts, I find myself using more and more aspects of different patterns during my sparring - especially as I now utilise locks and take downs. It has provided the variety to my repertoire. Understanding why you do each move in each pattern is hugely enlightening. If you get the opportunity to learn from Mr Russ Martin in his applied Taekwondo sessions - it is an absolute revelation. There are so many applications for something as simple as the low block. Through patterns, the body learns through muscle memory and you don't have time to think when reacting to situations. Patterns are a must - I also use them as a kind of 'moving meditation' A great way of coping with stress
  10. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    My tkd instructor says that patterns are too help balance,technique,and timing. Putting power into each movement exactly the same way over and over again to achieve automatic body responses wat ur eyes are not fast enough to see your body is fast enough to block and counter attack. It takes 3 years with regular practice to be good at that pattern. U have to do each move over 4000 times to have ur body do automatic responses. This is what my instructor told me and my late grandmaster park jung tae said to him.
  11. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    I think this is right, but would you guys not agree that the movements in patterns and sparring are different?
  12. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    Yes sir i do but i think patterns are good for the blocking part of sparring most just evade i block and attack while sparring. Taekwon
  13. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    I like how people on here argue that Taekwon-do is meant for so much more than ACTUAL fighting even though in order for the "ART" to gain popularity General Choi and his demo team reportedly went around the world doing challenge matches to prove its effectiveness in combat. All the people on here saying that sparring isn't the end goal of TKD are WRONG for a number of reasons. First, sparring is SUPPOSED to be a reflection of how Taekwon-do is to be used in actual FIGTING but due to the rules and the presence of so many McDojo's that, for some reason gravitate towards TKD (never seen a McDojo Muay Thai academy) it has DEGENERATED into some mad dash for points. Taekwon-do IS a martial art and seeing as how the MARTIAL comes before the ART, at its core its chief aim is to answer the question of how to best counter violence with violence. Only after your able to meet this basic requirement are you then able to go above and beyond the martial aspect of it and look at the moral implications of that violence and its impact on yourself and the world around you.
  14. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    That almost seems like that was specifically directed at someone
  15. UK-Student

    UK-Student Active Member

    Trust me, there are real sketchy places where the instructor wears shorts with Thai lettering on the front and bows with his hands pressed together. Often they will trade just under the name "Kickboxing" but with Thai trappings. Much less common than a McDojang but existent nevertheless (often teaching adults Kickboxing and kids Karate as if those arts have age recommendations on them).

    My opinion for a couple of cents is that the student and instructor can use TKD for a number of aims (sport, display, defence, philosophy, fitness) and whatever aims they have are fine as long as they know what they want and are honest with each other. I think they are all good aims and have been part of TKD since the start.
  16. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Patterns should be performed with realism, against and imaginary opponent, teaching you many many aspects simply from turning your head to react, to body movement to reaction force, of course if you do them correctly this gives you stamina.
    Ask you instructor to tell you in depth why we do Tuls, the basic answers never tell you the full abilities your learning.
  17. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Use the body and mind in unison.
  18. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    In light of what this shows us, yes they are useless.

    Thanks to UK student for letting me know about this guy. Patterns and the techniques they hold are so far removed from what they should be, any uses they did have have been lost. Patterns were a way of recording techniques centuries ago. When they were practiced it was against a real, resisting person. As Iain says elsewhere, that patterns are like a recipe. They show us the moves (ingredients) to make a good system of self defense (the meal). You don't put the cook book in the meal, and likewise patterns shouldn't be put into the training process. When you are training, you should do the 2 man version of the patterns, also knows as drilling a technique. once you have taught people this, you teach them the pattern so they can remember the moves they learnt, and pass them on. Anyone who thinks patterns are an effective way of training a fighter, or that they were originally taught for this purpous are misinformed. That misconception was brought in when karate was introduced to schools for kids, and he thought it irresponsible teach karate as a fighting system, but did want to teach something that they could then use later to learn karate with.
    UK-Student likes this.
  19. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Tuls teach you initialy, Focus, Balance, timing while building strength and techniques.
    Body shifting, fitness, stamina.
    If your not practising or understanding the uses then yes they are useless.
  20. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    Did you even watch the videos? Everything you just listed is a side affect of pattern practice, not its chief aim.

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