Can u use the patterns in sparring and real life fights?

Discussion in 'General Taekwondo Discussions' started by james driscoll, Jul 15, 2013.

  1. I was doing some free sparring with a green belt on friday and was told by my instructor not to worry about using low blocks to block her kicks.....she was competing on saturday...was i to over zealous or was i right?...i was just thinking of the pattern i learnt to make the transition from white to yellow belt...any thoughts?
  2. You definitely can use form patterns in sparring, however, you must realize that the movements will be a bit "modified" for each situation. Forms and step sparring are meant to help you create combinations for sparring. As you do them over and over, you will gain muscle memory that will cause you to react. Good luck and keep up the good work! You seem to have a good understanding of why you are doing your patterns.
  3. John Hulslander

    John Hulslander Active Member

    Directly, it is unlikely at best.

    How likely is a fight (competition or otherwise) to unfold like the scripted fight in your forms?

    Add to that, the amount of repetition you have to have in order for your muscle memory to enact your forms movement close to exactly.

    So directly, unlikely.

    Indirectly, sure

    Individual techniques are repeated in forms enough to make their practice useful even if not 100% practical.
    Whatever level you perform your forms will carryover to fighting.

    That is if you twist well in your punches in forms, you are much more likely to do so during a fight.

    Finally the exercise one can get in forms naturally has carryover in fighting.

    I would say your instructor was spot on in their assessment of your specific situation. In most TKD tournaments low kicks do not get you points, so why block them?
  4. kieran skeldon

    kieran skeldon New Member

    you definitely can use patterns in real life fights. Obviously in a fight im not going to start doing chon ji but I might use a low block into a middle fore fist punch. I don't use them in sparring too much as i tend too keep my arm low anyway. The way i look at it is everything you do in a pattern is a tool and its your choice whether you think you can use it or not, similar too combinations in sparring.
  5. asphalt666

    asphalt666 New Member

    One thing to remember in WTF sparring (and probably real life too but I'll stick to WTF since that's what I know) is that blocking is not as usefull as evading and countering. Most people feel the need to block the kick when they see it coming, but when you do so you:
    1- will receive the full impact on your blocking limb, the first block won't be that bad but after a few your arm will be very sore and you will have difficulty concentrating on the fight because it will just hurt too much. Kicks are powerfull and supposed to hit quite hard to score, absorbing the impact with any part of your body is not recommended.
    2- place yourself at the range of your opponent which gives him the advantage, if you're at your opponent's range then you become the prey. You need to always control the range between you and him to control the fight. By blocking you stay where he hits, at his range...

    For a sparring match, you need to work on your evading technique and countering. ie: If your opponent attacks with a dolyo, you know how he should land and where his chest will be placed after the kick, if you quickly evade and restore your range you can quickly counter and score points. Remember than in a sparring match blocks don't count, kicks do ;)
  6. I agree that in a tournament blocking is very UN USEFUL. Definitely in a real lif3 fight it may be useful to block and strike. As an ITF student we do not focus on tournament sparring so I am glad that allvof you are able to give tips from that angle! As dar as I've seen in WTF...there are hardly any blocks correct? Mostly evasions? I like that! I use it in tournaments when we have them and it works well! I do think though, that forms are still important to teach combinations and options for different movements. I love the conversations on here! Pilsung everyone!
  7. Well thanx for that fellow for my next question!!!!!!!
  8. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    Read up on Bruce's philosophy on forms. I agree they are OKAY for muscle memory, but slow, "perfect" form combination kicking combined with no gear sparring will teach you much more. Also keep in mind blocking is less efficient than parrying or deflecting. Look into escrima, arnis, and kali for better concepts on blocking defence. Boxing has good "absorption" concepts because anyone defending thinking they will net get hit will have a rude awakening. Look into many arts. I train in Kuk Sool Hapkido (Kong Shin Bup) and NKMAA strongly encourages cross-training. Kickboxing is a good combination of American and Asian styles, just as American boxing is an offshoot, so if is said, of the Filipino knife fighting systems.
  9. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    Oops. *it is said
  10. TKDTeen

    TKDTeen New Member

    Never use the low block if someone is kicking you from a distance where you can only reach their shin whilst blocking, You will break your forearm doing so because no matter how much force is put into the kick it will hurt your arm. If you're going to block shift into them and block around their quads. In other fighting styles they teach you to grab the leg and sweep e.t.c. Just for the future, be careful when blocking!
  11. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    It would depend on what kind of kick is thrown. A low block against a kick coming straight in, such as a side or front kick, will be fine with a low block because the power is in a straight line at you. Against a low round house, it will hurt like hell. An outside block against a head/chest level kick would be fine if the arm is angled to deflect the leg somewhat. Best philosophy, as I said in my earlier post, is parry or defection if the leg cannot be avoided.
  12. Schatzl

    Schatzl New Member

    You can use the movements from you patterns during a sparring match. As said, the moves will vary slightly. I don't think that some of the moves will be very effective in a street fight. I know that at my school, we have strike defense (or "one-steps") then we have self defense. The master who created the self defense moves is a police officer and has had to use these moves before in the field. I would say that if I were in a street fight situation, I would aim for the weak points of the body, like the knees. That is, if they are unarmed.

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    Some counter points:
    Blocking anything full on force on force is usually a last resort (still better than getting hit). Blocks are mostly used to deflect an incoming attack and redirect the force not stop it head on. Blocking turning (roundhouse) kicks, reverse knife hands and back fist strikes are the exception rather than the rule and there are ways too minimize the impact on your arms.

    Only true if you are not as adept as him in close range. Blocking his attack also puts you in your range as well where you can also hit him. The primary goal of blocking is to prevent an attack from hitting you but secondary goals are to damage his attacking limb and to block whist putting you in a position where it is more difficult from him to attack further, blocking his side kick on his calf forcing him to show you his back for example.

    In self defence blocks count too.
  14. Gazzer

    Gazzer Active Member

    Is trying to grab their leg with an open hand a block? cause in real life isnt that what you would do?
    Thats what I would do, I used to do that by accident when I was yellow belt in sparring but I got told off a lot for that.

    I often wonder if learning TKD is going to help me in a real life fight, not that I want to find out.
  15. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I often find myself using a movement and position similar to a scissor block when sparring. It allows covering of the head and body, and a soft exchange of hands for parrying when required.

    Basic low, middle and high block set up the principle of a 360 degree circle of defence (as in Krav Maga) in front of the practitioner. These blocks don't have to be bone on bone perpendicular pain makers, they can be soft parrying motions in similar positions and directions.

    Also consider the momentary stance one might adopt when slipping both feet backward in preparation for a counter kick - the feet move backward whilst the body weight is held forward ready for the kick. This forms a momentary, transitory apkubi or front long stance.

    Consider also what happens to stance in a tug-o-war. It is natural to assume a stance similar to a traditional back stance or dwikubi. The same happens when we grapple and pull an opponent - frequent transitory Apkubi and Dwikubi transitions, with momentary Apseogi front stances in between.

    Footwork, balance control, principles of attack and defence and independent coordination of limb motions are all learned through practice of patterns, so yes, you can and do use them in sparring.

    More advanced hand techniques are less likely to be applicable in sparring, but are certainly applicable in self defence.
  16. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    No. You can use the techniques within the patterns, but you will need to practice those techniques outside of the patterns, and against a resisting opponent.
  17. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Which means they are applicable in self defence, so er...yes. That's what the 'able' at the end of the word means - 'can be possible to'.

    The basic coordination, balance, and muscle memory of the motion will have been learned through the pattern, so under resistive practice outside of the form, the only thing to worry about or concentrate on is using the resistance of the opponent to your advantage.

    Dealing with resistance is part of every type of sparring that we do, and that experience of dealing with resistance helps a lot with the understanding and application of Poomsae motions.

    Just because you can't or don't do it, doesn't mean it can't be done, Bowlie.

    If an opponent resists against one direction of movement, they are assisting in another direction. This means the user of Poomsae motions must be ready to turn on a dime and switch from push to pull technique (perhaps changing the chosen motion) very suddenly. I wish I could demonstrate what I mean, it would be a lot easier and I believe you would be less inclined to disagree.
    Sabomnim Dan likes this.
  18. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    There is a reason good schools study the applications though. Noone ever beat off an attacker with Chon Gi, but they have done so using the techniques in it. Just doing the patterns is not going to help you defend yourself much, although using them as one tool in many is a good idea if it works for you. patterns have things they are good at and things they are bad at, like everything, and its silly to say that they can do everything.

    OP, using low blocks is uncommon because blocking a strong kick with your fore arm is asking for trouble, and it means your hand is not where it needs to be (protecting your head or hitting the other person). I also find the argument that the low block is a throw much more compelling than the one its a block, but I know some people disagree with me, so make up your own mind.
  19. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I'm not saying they can do everything, I'm saying they are applicable. How one chooses to make them applicable is down to personal training preferences and style. I'm sure that the technique of my straight punch (practiced in every Taekwondo form) is as effective as it can be for self defence purposes, for example. The best strategy for its use under application is something that I am developing through resistive sparring.

    Your hand doesn't need to be protecting your head, it should protect whatever needs protecting at that moment. Hands are mobile, not fixed, and with experience you know where they need to be at any given point in time. Head only cover is limiting in the context of WTF sport Taekwondo as your midsection gets pummelled. In self defence, the opponent should have a maximum of one shot; with preemptive striking, covering is secondary. Where the opportunity to pre-empt is lost, then cover what needs covering: react to your opponent on your way to attack.

    I would argue that a low block motion is both a block and a throw and more. This is not an either / or situation; you don't have to decide. The ability to live with ambiguity is important for understanding how to apply movement.
  20. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Incidentally, I've had this 'hands up' conversation with a few people in real life too, followed by sparring sessions. It's surprising how quickly their hands become more mobile the first time a good hard and fast punch, back kick or turning kick connects with their liver, stomach, solar plexus or groin.

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