chung do kwan patterns

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by michael mckenna, Apr 19, 2014.

  1. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    im researching heavily into won kuk lee and the traditional way he taught karate which he taught when he went back to korea and im trying to find out which of the original okinawan karate kata he was taught if anyone knows please share your info. thanks
     
  2. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

  3. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Based on Son Duk Sung`s books (he was the 2nd headmaster of the Chung Do Kwan and a direct student of Lee Won Kuk:
    • Pyung Ahn 1-5 (Heian in Shotokan following Shotokan`s unique teaching order)
    • Chulgi 1-2 (Naihanchi or Tekki. Shotokan version. I suspect Chulgi 3 as well but it does not appear in his writings)
    • Palsaek (Bassai/Patsai Shotokan Bassai Dai)
    • Koongsookoon (Kushanku Dai Shotokan version also known as Kwanku)
    I can check my books to see if I missed anyone but these were definitly taught:) If you need background material on the forms history etc you could visit my blog and look for "Dan grading 1962" in the search field. I based a series on the first joint belt test of the KTA in 1962 were there was a list of all the different forms from the different Kwan that they had to perform for their belt test. It did not specify which Kwan demanded which form though.

    I think that if you are serious of researching the Chung Do Kwan and you can afford it, investing in some of the earlier writings of Gichin Funakoshi would be a good way to see what he was taught while studying with him:) He was not taught "modern Shotokan" that you see today but a middle way product between modern shotokan and okinawan shuri te karate. The emphasis was heavy on basics and forms with additional training methods such as makkiwara and other hojo undo.
     
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  4. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    The books I reference above is "Tae Kwon Do; Korean Karate" by Son Duk Sung and Robert J Clark from 1968 and "Black Belt Korean Karate" by the same authors from 1987ish.
     
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  5. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    can you recommend a funakoshi teaching book for biography ? ive been meaning to research more into the okinawan karate masters as even knowing more about them and karate lets me know more about taekwondo
     
  6. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    If you want a biography I would reccomend Karate Do My way of life by Gichin Funakoshi. Here he tells his own tale and shares a lot of histories about his teachers (Anko and Azato Itosu and Bushi Matsumura). Here you will get a lot of information. At the end of the book there is even a detailed self defense encounter between Funakoshi and a younger assailant which Funakoshi apprehended and held in place until Police came. This happened when he was in his 80s and with very old school techniques. Techniques that many people today say he did not know:p

    If you want some of his more karate technical writings Neptun publications had a great reprint of the earliest Karate Do Kyohan. Gennerally you want a publication that first came out in the 1930s as this is the period Lee Won Kuk studdied with him:) Later publications of Karate Do Kyohan are all good and I reccomend them as they are well written and influenced a lot of future martial arts publications. The last edition of Karate Do Kyohan is a little different in style than the earlier one. The specific mentions of applications to specific moves in specific forms are dropped, but the techniques are still in the book. The stances etc are changed from the earlier Okinawan influence to the deeper and more modern "Shotokan" stances and there are some alterations in Kata but they are noted by the translator and often the traditional and the modern method is shown. The big advantage of the newer edition of Karate do kyohan is that it is easy to come by, it has better pictures and is better illustrated than the earlier ones. Personally I have one translation of an early edition of Karate Do Kyohan and one tranlation of the latest Karate Do Kyohan. The last edition came out after Gichin Funakoshi died (he died in 1957 I believe) the book came out in 1958 if I am not mistaken. The last Korean pioneers returned to Korea around 1948 so Shotokan had evolved 10 years in the time the last pioneers returned to Korea and the newest edition came out. Ro Byung Jik (founder of Song Moo Kwan) and Lee Won Kuk both studdied with funakoshi and both had left him even earlier than 1948.
     
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  7. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    sounds like i need to get to work on my bookshelf for my martial arts library some great advice thank you sir i will scour amazon, play.com and other websites for the books i need. even just recently got the art of war and the book of five rings and the graphic novel version of the book of five rings. all of which were just delivered less then an hour ago. so be ignoring my gf for a week while i read them lol
     
  8. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Remember to buy her a new pair of shoes when the week is over;) Trust me on this one;) :p
     
  9. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    lol unfortunatly its not that simple she's not a material girl so it will probably be a steak dinner at the local feeding hole :)
     
  10. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Ok I have checked my "library" and here is the complete list of Son Duk Sung`s forms in his 1960s and 1980s books. Note that there might be some forms taught at higher levels of Chung Do Kwan that did not make it into the books but the forms as written in his books were "mainstream Chung Do Kwan forms".

    1960s book contains:
    • Kuk Mu 1-2 Hyung* (Uniquely Korean forms)
    • Pyong An 1-5 Hyung (Pinan/Heian following Shotokan teaching order)
    • Chulgi 1 Hyung (Tekki following Shotokans version)
    • Pal Sek Hyung (Bassai/Patsai, identical to Shotokan`s Bassai Dai)
    * Kuk Mu Hyung were most likely devised in Kuk Mu Kwan which was an offshoot to Chung Do Kwan. Son Duk Sung was with them for a brief period of time before he went to USA. It seems that he took the first two forms with him. There was eventually developed 7 forms in this series but the are rarely seen.

    1980s book contains:
    • Ship Su Hyung (Jitte Kata or 10 hands. Shotokan version)
    • Chulgi 2 Hyung (Tekki 2 identical to Shotokan version)
    • Yun Bee Hyung (Empi/ Enpi Kata Shotokan version)
    • Ja On Hyung (Jion Kata Shotokan version)
    Trained in Chung Do Kwan but not in Son Duk Sung`s books:
    • Chulgi 3 Hyung (Tekki 3 Kata shotokan version
    • Kong Soo Kon Hyung (Kushanku Dai/ Kwanku Kata shotokan version)
    • Maybe and likely several others:)
     
  11. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Oh Do Kwan contained Karate Kata at least untill 1965 as they were included in Choi Hong Hi`s book that came out in 1965. A new and rare version was printed in 1972. By 1972 the Karate kata was omitted so somewhere between 1965 and 1972 the Karate Kata was discontinued in Oh Do Kwan. I have not researched all the Kata contained in the 1965 book, but if does stand out from Chung Do Kwan and Moo Duk Kwan in that there are no Kihap points in them. Also in some instances in the Heian series the older way of performing them is kept in Oh Do Kwan, while Chung Do Kwan is extremly close to the more modern JKA way of performing the Heian forms. Oh Do Kwan kept Shotokans unique teaching order though witnessing the influence of Shotokan. Also Oh Do Kwan largely kept the Japanese names for the forms.

    The forms of Oh Do Kwan as documented in the 1965 book of Choi Hong Hi is:
    • Hei-An 1-5 Hyung
    • Bat-sai Hyung
    • En-bi Hyung
    • Ro-Hai Hyung*
    • Kouh-shang-kouh hyung
    • Jit-te hyung
    • Han-getsu Hyung
    • Tet-Ki 1-3 Hyung
    • Ji-on hyung
    Ro-Hai Hyung is called Ro-Hai but the form that is documented under that name is actually Chinto Kata Shotokan version. I suspect that either Choi meant to document both Chinto and Rohai but something went wrong under the editing process or that Choi learned Chinto under a false name or that Choi simply made a mistake:)

    If someone is interested I can also list the forms that Hwang Kee documented in one of his first Korean language books:)
     
  12. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    the hyung that was taught in chung do kwan taekwondo can they really be called taekwondo forms ? i know the chang hon patterns are basically a remix of the shotokan patterns but i feel choi hong hi may of not known the real purpose of the moves and could of chosen the moves randomly or what looks good, i feel he didnt know the practical applications of the karate kata due to the fact when he came back from japan to korea he was a second dan in shotokan, and was given an honorary 4th dan by son duk sung which was then taken from choi due to the fact he fabricated his martial arts career and claimed he was the highest ranking martial artist in korea at that time despite only have a 2nd dan which he earned, i feel myself doubting the chang hon patterns and it is a horrible feeling but its something that i feel could be wrong and not set in a practical sequence like the shotokan kata, i feel abit of a heratic about it
     

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