Common uncorrected mistakes

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by NoBullShitFighting, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    In the same form, just after the first Dollyo Chagi (roundhouse kick or turning kick) there is an outward block that is supposed to be done in high section (according to Kukkiwon Textbook) but 99% of the teachers I have seen teaches the block as a normal "Momtong bakkat makki" (middle section outward block) and not the "correct" Eulgul Bakkat Makki (face section outward block). That is a shame in my opinion as this is the only time in the Kukkiwon Poomsae that that kind of bakkat makki is done at face level... Yok Jang is a special form in many regards, as it contains several features not shared in other Kukkiwon forms or features that are very rare in the Kukkiwon system (only form that contain the roundhouse kick, only form that has the aforementioned face level block, one of very few forms containing backward movement, one of very few forms that contain the twisting outward block (just before the roundhouse kick) etc etc ). Most people are in a rush to get to the black belt forms at this point so yok Jang does not get study in the level of detail that it deserves leaving many students with a faulty Yok Jang for years and years..
  2. NoBullShitFighting

    NoBullShitFighting Active Member

    I think that is the old Kukkiwon poomsae. You are of course referring to movement sequence starting at movement 9? I know Ilyeo Kwan used egul maki, but i think kukkiwon now uses momtong bakkat maki in their competitions.
  3. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    It depends on how you count the techniques, but it is the outward block done just after the first round house kick. I checked my Kukkiwon Textbook again to be absolutly sure, and it did say eulgul bakkat makki (face section outward block) and that was the newest edition. Unless they have changed it after the newest edition it is correct to do a face section outward block and not a middle section outward block wich is what almost everyone does.
  4. NoBullShitFighting

    NoBullShitFighting Active Member

    Here is the old films from ilyeo tkd. Here we can clearly see an egul maki.

    in this more recent film we see it executed as a bakkat maki above nose level with finger pointing forward. Egul bakkat maki.

    So i take it back, you are very correct!
  5. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    While we are still on Yuk (6) Jang the "Arae hecho makki" or low section spreading block done in Narahni Seogi (feet one foot distance appart, paralell stance). Here the arms start at shoulder height and the left arm is forward. Many people start with their arms much higher sometimes blocking their sight, and there seems to be a 50/50 chance wich arm is forward at the start of the movement. Again this is a rare technique in the Kukkiwon forms and it is first encountered in Taegeuk Yuk (6) Jang. A faulty technique here will manifest itself later in the more "advanced" forms.
  6. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    All patterns:

    Leg slapping when coming to attention. Not good. Fists closed at the sides, feet together.

    Bowing incorrectly - upper body 30 Degrees from the hips, Head 30 degrees. I should see your bald spot if you have one.

    Failure to stand in Kibon Junbi correctly. The arms should form a circle, with the forefists facing each other about one fist width apart. I strongly dislike the straight-arm Junbi you sometimes see online, where the forefists point at the ground. Same goes for the feet, they should be shoulder width apart and facing parallel forwards, not sticking out to either side like Pingu.

    Taegeuk Il Jang:
    Not carrying body weight forward with the feet and hips when stepping, due to awareness of an impending turn.
    No step off the line when turning in apseogi, like in the first movement. Apseogi has width.
    No chamber of the motion during the turn and finish the motion at the same time as the footfall or just before it.
    Chamber hand not back to the waist.
    Chamber hand back to the waist, but in the 'I'm a little teapot' sense rather than the 'I'm good' sense.
    No waist twist in movements.
    Punching at the wrong height in apseogi. The target is the solar plexus, the arm should slope downwards.
    Not rotating on the ball of the standing foot when turning 180 degrees.
    Not locking out the back leg in Apkubi.
    Not closing the fists fully.
    Not using both hands for every movement.
    Not ensuring every hand movement has a wrist twist, including the chamber hand.
    Arae makki too close to the knee or too far away. There should be one fist width from the knee.
    Failure to chamber inward blocks, and inward blocks taking an incorrect path, normally too high and too round.
    Pointing the chamber arm in the wrong direction, especially when there is a turn involved. The chamber arm points in the new direction of travel as soon as is practical taking into account footwork and waist twist.
    High blocks with an incorrect trajectory. The forearm moves through a plane, not a curve.
    Apchagi with power only from the knee. There should be some hip coming forward.
    Apchagi with incorrect striking surface displayed. That should be the ball of the foot.
    Apchagi too high. The first 3 (beginner) patterns require middle height apchagis.
    Poor posture when kicking. Chin up, head steady, back straight, standing leg straight with the heel on the ground, foot turned outward to allow the kicking hip forward. Arms stay in a casual comfortable guard - the olgul makki can come down during the kick to a reasonable guard.
    Leaning forward in Apkubi, shoulders not square in apkubi.
    Too tense and robotic.
    Failure to kihap worth anything - 'hip'
    Shoving too much body weight to the right when returning to Junbi at the end. Causes an off-vertical axis spin and looks bad.
    Breathing like a steam engine through the form. Breath should be just as you normally breathe.
    Looking down at the ground or any other part of your own body.
    No visual focus. Vision should be focused 1.6m in front of you in the direction of travel unless specifically asked for in the form.
    The head turn should be part of the movement. Additional head movement before the rest of the movement is adding something to the form that is not required.
    Pattern tempo too fast.
    Pattern tempo too slow.
    Pattern tempo too variable.
    Pauses too long.
    No pauses.
    Movement too fast and snatchy, pattern tempo independent.
    Movement too slow, pattern tempo independent.

    I could go on. If you think you know this form well, try it mirrored, turning right first. Then try it backwards. Then try it blind fold. Then try it only moving forwards in a straight line. Then try it on every surface you can think of. Then try it underwater. Then try it in slow motion, then as fast as possible. Then try moving slowly the first time the movement appears, then quickly where a movement appears for a second time. Then try it balancing a kick pad on your head. Then only breathing out. Then whilst commentating every movement in Korean. Then in English. Then whilst describing the movements of Yi Jang. Good luck.
  7. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    It is not a physical error I find uncorrected,
  8. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    It is not a physical error I find uncorrected,
  9. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Great list Gnarlie and a lot of food for thought.

    This is very true. One of my teachers said that you should not be so focused on the "lines" as they are not very thin lines but rather very broad. If you start Taegeuk Il Jang your front foor is behind the starting point and "off line" the way many people seems to look at the lines. Then you step forward the front foot is on the same line as the starting point, but you turn pivoting on your back leg (wich was "behind" the line of the starting point) to begin with, and with the width of Apseogi now your front leg is even more behind the starting line than before..

    The current standard as of 2006 edition of Kukkiwon Textbook stipulates two fists distance above the knee but I do see your point. Frequently I see that the low block is almost touching their body or almost nearly like a horizontal hammer fist strike instead. In application the situation would dictate the distance but in Poomsae it is always the same.

    I have never seen the kicking height being stated as being middle anywhere. Actually in the newer books on Poomsae performance (Official Explanation of Poomsae, Taekwondo Poomsae and What is Taekwondo Poomsae) published between 2007-2011 all say that the height is the head if nothing else is stated within the pattern. Have you seen this height requirement anywhere Gnarlie? I know that in 2006 there was a brief time when WTF said middle section for competition (but soon it was changed back to head height, and then to straight up). Other than that I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point as these days more and more people kick straight up or like the side kick, hammer fist in Oh Jang and Taebaek kick face height (wich makes no sense no matter how you look at applications).

    (Emphasis added by me) I was always taught that you should slightly bend your standing leg when kicking for better stability. This is also emphasised in numerous books (Taekwondo published 1986 and What is Taekwondo Poomsae published 2010/11 are two specific examples that comes to mind).

    Thank you so much for bringing this issue into the light:) I wrote a whole article on this on my blog as many people "bug me" with my performance that lacks the head turn as a seperate movement.
  10. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    To canadiankyosa: I remember reading your post last night but it seems to have dissapeared today. You wrote something along the lines of its not the physical that you want corrected but the wrong spelling and usage of Korean terms?

    I am with you on the wrong usage of terms, but I would not be so hunged up on spelling. Hapkido, Hap Ki Do, Hab Ki Do, Habkido, Taekwondo; Tae Kwon Do, Taegwondo, Tae`gwon Do etc are ALL WRONG spellings for the two Korean Martial Arts. The only two that can be right is: 합기도 and 태권도 as it is Korean words. They can also be written in Hanja making two correct spellings of Taekwondo and Hapkido. All the spelling done in the latin alphabet is not the correct Korean spelling.

    But wrong usage of terms and terminology is something that I do not like myself. Having spendt considerable time in Korea and trying my best to learn Korean it really screams at me when I see terms like "Taekwondo-ka" or something (A Korean martial art and a Japanese term for student instead of Taekwondo-in). It is difficult the foreign language and the foreign terms, but if you insist on using them you should try your best to use them correctly and consistently:)
  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Sorry, accident, I did mean two fists, I somehow got carried away with my fervent list making! Well spotted. Totally agree, on the application point.
    Not written but verbally directly from 2 separate trainers who are Kukkiwon trained very recently. It's ok for senior grades to kick to the face if they can do so meaningfully, but beginners should be asked for middle in the first 3 forms until their kicking ability blossoms. Kicks higher than head height should always be avoided in my opinion. Totally agree on applications again.

    I tend to go with the Kukkiwon definitions over the WTF. The WTF tried to make everything, even stance widths and lengths so exact so that they could score it, whereas the KKW requirements are looser and more 'do what is comfortable for your body shape and structure'. Taekwondo should be inclusive, and that includes people who can't kick high.

    I was taught that too, and I do keep a very slight bend. It should not be visible through the dobok pant leg though. An extreme bend in the standing leg on an apchagi is unnecessary and highlights poor flexibility and technique. Those who need to bend that much to reach high kicks should kick lower, is my point.
    It's hard to teach. It's not a separate movement, but you don't rotate head and shoulders together like a metalhead the day after the headbanger's ball either. Somewhere in between as an integral part of the overall movement.
  12. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member


    I suspect you're a Kuk Sool Won guy, which would mean you would be training older style front kicks similar to those of Shotokan where both hips and the standing leg provide the forward thrust. In which case the standing foot must point forwards.

    The modern Kukkiwon TKD front kick garners its power from a hip thrust on one side only ie the kicking hip is lifted and thrust forward. This requires around 20 degree turnout of the standing leg to open the hip joint and avoid stifling the kick.

    As for combinations, they are not featured in the forms except for one instance with another front kick. Even so, outside of the forms we use the hips differently to Kuk Sool Won to create combination kicks. I don't find combinations with apchagi difficult. On the contrary.

    Lastly, as to your hypothesis that the standing foot should point forward because it points forward naturally when we stand, I'm afraid anyone with a good understanding of body mechanics and KKW front kick would disagree. It's imperative to turn the hips slightly when kicking and generating power with a single side, in order to open the hip joint and allow free motion. In order to open the hip, you gotta turn the foot, otherwise you put inward torque strain on the standing knee. Turning out too far results in lateral stress on the standing knee and negates the effect of the slight bend Oerjan and I discussed, so it's a balanced compromise. Foot facing forward with the Kukkiwon power generation mechanic just doesn't work.

    We're definitely talking about two different modes of front kick here.
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    My hobby horse points for Taegeuk Yi Jang:

    Everything I said for Il Jang plus....
    Can't differentiate between Apseogi and Apkubi
    Stepping over invisible brick to get from Apseogi to Apkubi
    Falling into Apkubi
    Leaning forward in Apkubi, both the above leading to front knee further forward than the toes
    Leaning to the right or left on the first An Palmok An Makki
    Punches on the middle bar of the Kwae should be to the philtrum not the Solar Plexus
    Not showing both inward blocks fully ie rushing the movement at the top line of the Kwae.
    Off vertical axis on the 270 Degree turn leading to poor balance.
    No waist twist here looks poor too.
    No width to apseogi in the above movement due to the rushed turn
    On the way back, if the punches aren't timed with the footfall after the kick, it looks horrible
  15. Josh

    Josh New Member

    as a general comment (& to go along w/John's comment)- thinking your interpretation of the movement is the ONLY/RIGHT interpretation...that always bothered me coming up the rank, & still does to this day ;)
    Gnarlie likes this.
  16. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Agree. Out of curiosity, who's John?

    The movement is just that. If you consider the name as largely irrelevant and misleading beyond being a way to communicate the concept of the movement when teaching it for the first time, the movement can be used to do whatever you like.

    Only a couple of days ago, I used a momtong-hecho makki to hold open bus doors that were going to close on me as I was getting in. It was very effective, but it's maybe not what the conception of the movement was about. Doesn't make it any less effective for the purpose.

    Later the same day, I used the same movement as a response to a punch. It worked there too.

    I remain open to suggestions for all movements, but I think it important that students understand the pure base movement as it is taught before they start experimenting with other ideas. I find if this is not a focus early on, then elements of the 'corrupted' self defence application movement creep into the poomsae, people start to adjust wat they are doing to fit a specific application, and that's not right, as each movement or sequence can have multiple interpretations.

    I have noticed that often people (including higher ranks) aren't open to the 'this is the original purpose of the movement' approach, so I tend to present alternative applications as 'here is a brutal self defence sequence inspired by the middle line of Taegeuk Oh Jang', for example. Most people don't have a problem with that.
  17. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    There are occasional instances where instructors are taught movements in thier earlier years and they may be incorrect and due to research or discussions the true movement comes out, however when an instructor believes he is correct all the time and is not open to learn then this is where an instructor can be blind and blinkered.
    No matter who or what ever your rank, one must remember to always be able to learn.
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Aha, you must be the John he was talking about. Hello. For some reason I couldn't see your comment. I could not agree more. I remain open to suggestions :)
    John McNally likes this.
  19. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Hi there Gnarlie its good to hear your a fellow open minded practitioner, i look forward to seeing more of your interactions.
  20. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member


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