Common uncorrected mistakes

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by NoBullShitFighting, Feb 15, 2013.

  1. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Quoted from Canadiankyosa: "Bite your tongue, please. NOT Kuk Sool Won. I do not mean the supporting foot cannot turn slightly, as in about 10 degrees, but to turn more than than is very hard on the hip joint and supporting knee, as they are not meant to turn 90 degrees to the side and come straight up. Of course, any kind of kicking above the knees is detrimental to the hip joints. Many traditional styles have not adapted to the modern knowledge of kinesiology and body mechanics. That is one Kuk Sool hapkido is attempting to change. We no longer do axe kicks or a crescent kick (that is also to protect the inside of the leg as it comes up and across) without a bent leg. We also have difference in our forward stance. Hapkido, TKD, Shotokan, etc use a 45 degree angle moving forward and such. We used to do so, but now we use the KSW stance where the feet are shoulder width apart and the feet point straight ahead. Also, when moving in stances, we bring the feet together to a0 generate torque and b) to protect the groin. The reason: KSW is better for being able to turn angles divisible by 90 degrees. but lack the better stability, while the other are a more solid stance with the ability to move at angles to a point."

    I've not experienced any problems with my hip joints in all my time training. Or my knees, for that matter. Nor have I found any evidence supporting your claims. You make some fairly controversial points here from a Taekwondo perspective and I'd be interested if you can provide some peer reviewed research to support your assertion that kicking above the knee is bad for the hip joint, and that turning out the foot is detrimental too.

    My own knowledge and research of Kinesiology and body mechanics does not support your assertions here, especially not within the framework of the wider body motion that the foot turnout sits within in a Taekwondo context, but I'm willing to discuss it from a scientific perspective if you can back it up with some credible evidence.

    Also, and I mean this in a polite way, please could you use the quote function correctly, as it's difficult to reply to you clearly when you don't :)
  2. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I'm gonna go ahead and take the lack of response as a 'no' until further notice. Even with further investigation I can't find anything reliable to support the claim that kicking above the knee if detrimental to the hip joint. It depends how you kick.

    Taegeuk Sam Jang:

    Not recovering the apchagi to chamber and regaining stability before placement into apkubi.
    In combination movements, cutting the first movement short ie not completing the movement before starting the second
    Not stretching the arm out fully on the sonnal chigi, so it ends up looking more like a makki.
    Striking too low with Sonnal Mok Chigi. It's a neck strike, and should be at the practitioner's own neck height.
    Not differentiating between Dwikubi and Apkubi in the Sonnal Makki, Momtong Jireugi combo. There should be a weight shift forward and the front foot should move to the side.
    Off vertical axis on the 270 turn, causing instability and a weak arae makki. If this movement is not completed fully and correctly, the instability carries over into the apchagi.
    On the way back to the start, with the combination Apchagi, Arae Makki, Momtong Jireugi, not timing the footfall correctly after the kick. The footfall should be timed to the arae makki reaching its target. At first, most people time the footfall to the chamber of the arae makki, which causes an unnecessary pause and breaks up the flow of the movements.
    John McNally likes this.
  3. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Taegeuk Sa (4) Jang:
    • Chambering of knife hand guard done in "weird" ways
      • Hands start out straight back (no bending of the elbows)
      • The arms start high or low
      • The arms are "hidden" on the back
      • Changing the chamber into a "Karate chamber" instead
    • The timing of the downward openhanded block and spearthrust is off according to the standards of Kukkiwon
      • Blocking first, step and then thrust
      • thrust then block
      • all possible combinations except the kukkiwon standard (both together in one movement)
    • Chambering and trajectory of Jebipoom Mok Chige (swallow form throat strike).
      • Throat strike part is done straight or almost straight forward as a thrust
      • End positioning of openhanded face block is wrong according to kukkiwon standards
    • Inserting a stance often dwit koobi between the two side kicks
    • Kicking the two side kicks straight up
    • The outer block-frontkick-put foot back into back stance while doing a middle block is done without timimg the middle block with the foot fall
    • The chamber or target for back fist strike is wrong (chamber done on the outside of the Dangki son or pulling hand completly destroys the practical application of having a pulling hand with the technique)
    Gnarlie likes this.
  4. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    -Chambering too high for kodeureo sonnal makki
    -Rear elbow sticking out too prominently in kodeureo sonnal makki
    -Hips not correctly aligned in dwikubi should be angled comfortably at around 45 degrees to target
    -No sign of nullo makki movement
    -Jebipoom mok chigi - first instance of sonnal olgul makki, wrist and hand should be straight but often are not. Head should be covered
    -Shoulders should be twisted to reach opponent's neck with sonnal an chigi
    -The stance between the yeopchagis has been a bone of contention for some time, not sure why. A comfortable foot down position after the first kick. Narahni seogi.
    -Bakkat palmok bakkat makki often has no waist twist, especially the first one after the 270 turn.
    -Weight and hip not carried forward into apchagi due to anticipation of step back, resulting in a weak and sloppy looking 'falling back' kick.
    -No power or waist twist in an palmok an makki, hips not turned far enough to cover myeongchi.
    -Incorrect chamber for deungjoomeok chigi. Should come from armpit.
    -Failure to chamber for the anpalmok an makki and failure to time the block to the footfall. On both sides, and in the penultimate and last movements.
    -Incomplete first punch in the double punch combo.
  5. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    I agree with most of what is being pointed out in this thread (particularly good points by Oerjan, Gnarlie, and Master McNally). However, there are a couple of points on which I would like to comment.

    You are absolutely correct about that. In fact, even those that do the face block are often not positioning the arm high enough (the video performance is a bit low). The upper arm should be exactly horizontal with the ground and the forearm vertical while maintaining the 90 degrees between the two. The top of the fist should be at the top of the head level so that the entire length of the forearm covers the side of the face. Having recently completed a Poomsae seminar with Grandmaster Hae-Man Park, he made that correction among the Black Belts and Masters present.

    I find this to be a personal preference rather than “right or wrong” or “good or bad.” I am not a fan of the “slapping” of the legs in an excessive gesture, but a quick, firm pressing of the hands should be done sharply in my preference. Also, throughout my entire Taekwondo career, we have always been taught, and continue to teach our students to use the straight, flat hands pressed to the sided of the pant leg. The closed fist has been used in refereeing (WTF Olympic rules), and is typically associated with the military attention stance. Some Taekwondo schools use it, and the Kukkiwon might be recommending it, but I don’t view the flat hands as bad or wrong since it is common practice among many Grandmasters . This also runs into the feet closed (moa seogi) typically used in training for attention stance, and the heel closed with toes open (dwichuk moa seogi) which Referees use and is related to military, and is what the Kukkiwon describes as “attention stance.”

    This one is not consistent with any of my training or resources. The “Mok Chigi” is a “neck” strike, not a throat strike. It circles (hence the term “chigi” rather than thrust in “jireugi”) in an inward direction and strikes the side of the neck at the carotid artery.

    This might just be a typo or oversight on your part, but in Sa Jang, each of the six an makgi (inward body blocks) utilize the Bakgat Palmok (outer forearm), rather than the “an palmok” (inner forearm). Although it is typically not specified in terminology like it is in the Bakgat Makgi, since the outer block can be done with either the inner or outer foream. However the inward block only uses the outer forearm, and is usually just referred to as momtong makgi (몸통막기) or even momtong an makgi (몸통안막기).

    Other than that, I concur with each of the points made.

    Blue Knight
  6. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Fists is most definitely KKW recommended, and their high ranking trainers object rather strongly to any kind of slapping in my experience. At a recent seminar, this was specifically taught along with the correct bowing form.
    I think Oerjan was describing what people do wrong! I see a lot of people do this as a thrust jist due to the extra coordination it takes with 2 hands in play. Absolutely agree that it should be a curved path with the carotid target rather than throat.
    Typo, thanks, phone autofill text. Got caught up in the flow! You are of course correct. An palmok an makki would be somewhat uncomfortable to perform!
    Appreciate your taking the time to make these corrections.
  7. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    I was describing how many perform jebipoom mok chigi wrong. Correctly done it has a curved/circular trajectory. As for the throat/ neck part I am not a native english speaker and I am much more comfortable with the korean terminology than the english ones.
  8. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    LOL - Sorry I misinterpreted this particular comment in your post. Thanks for the clarification. I see now that you were pointing out what people were doing wrong.

    Blue Knight
    Oerjan likes this.
  9. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    One more common mistake: Taegeuk Pal (8) Jang. An insane number of students and instructors alike fail to recognise that there are 2 DIFFERENT jumping front kicks in the form. There is one type early in the form and another type near the end of the form. Done fast they look simular and in English they are often only described as jumping front kicks.
    Gnarlie likes this.
  10. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    Too much tension or at lease tension in the wrong places during movements

    not enough attention paid to tranistional steps

    no reation arms on turning kicks

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