dirty techniques

Discussion in 'Self Defense' started by Finlay, Jan 24, 2016.

  1. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    How many of you include what are generally deemed as dirty techniques in your self defence classes.

    For the purpose of the dicussiom I will leave the meaning of term dirty techniques up to you.
     
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  3. John Hulslander

    John Hulslander Active Member

    I would argue that when it comes down to self defense, the term dirty techniques does not apply.
    They are just techniques that are not appropriate for free fighting.
     
  4. We provide a safe place for a Women's Empowerment and Self Defense Course at our School. I volunteer as a Simulation "Dummy", I get to wear a big Red Man suit. The first time I did it, this lady, who has trained a little BJJ and Cardio Kickboxing, tried to put me in an Arm bar, she was proficient and quick, but I knew how to defend from an arm bar, we were on the ground for about 5 seconds, while she struggled to figure out that it wasn't going to happen. What we discussed later was that she was sparring, when she should have been fighting for her life. The obvious correction was that she had me in the perfect position to stomp my face in with her heel or kick my head clean off my shoulders(I'm glad she didn't because the Red Man suit doesn't protect against Breaking of the Neck) I always wonder why that doesn't happen in the UFC, I think it's Illegal, but I've never seen anyone try it, they're just so focused on the arm bar.
     
  5. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    I do. From the start, I emphasize on "doing anything you can do to save your life". Hit groin, slap cheek, grab hair, bite ears, break nose, whatever. I assume dirty techniques to be techniques that have no defined execution method.
     
  6. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    Arts that primarily rely on things like groin strikes or eye gouging are faulty and will never work.

    I find value in them, but they should be added to someone's repertoire after they have reached a very high level in the art. Realistically, there are so many situations such as people being intoxicated or on drugs that they will not work at all. There's plenty of video evidence on the net of people being tazed, hit beat in the head with sticks and bats etc and not going down that if ALL you can do is groin kick and eye gouge then you are gonna get hurt badly.

    The saying that "you shouldn't bet your life on something you've never been able to practice with aliveness and resistance" is true I think.

    I keep certain techniques in my back pocket personally like certain advantageous positions to stomp the head after a throw, strike the groin from a position where I can't be hit back, where to bite off a nose (which should be life or death situations since I'd rather not catch a blood disease) and so on but they will never be primary or "go to" techniques in reality. I'm not fully convinced a fully determined, blind rage attacker would be deterred by them. And any attacker who would be deterred simply didn't have their full commitment to the attack and any minor resistance would have achieved the same effect.
     
  7. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    I do Graice Jiujitsu 3 times a week along with my TKD and kickboxing. I disagree with your assessment of the arm bar. The top leg being removed to strike would allow space to escape by a wild, crazy spazzing out opponent (which is how 99% of people with no grappling experience will react). If she "trains a little BJJ" then she likely has not gained proficiency in the technique, and more importantly WHEN to apply it.
     
  8. Matt

    Matt Member

    If you think of your self defense techniques versus your competition sparing techniques they should vary greatly. The best way to think of it is, anything that will get you a one point deduction or disqualified in sparring should be your go to moves in self defense. With this mindset it is easy to understand why you should attack the throat, eyes, upper lip, ears, and the groin. To me dirty techniques make me think of things that are unconditional. Such as head butting, or ear biting, or unnecessary kicks to the groin after an opponent is down.
     
  9. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    So many of the replies are defining what 'dirty techniques' are but do you teach them as part of your self defence syllabus?

    If so how do you incorporate them? and if not why not?
     
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    No, I don't. In that IMO there's no such thing as a dirty technique, only what is appropriate to the circumstances or not.
     
    Michael MacNeil likes this.
  11. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    Yes, it's part of the hosinsul lesson. I give my students above options, they act to whatever they think is appropriate to do. Only attacker movement is defined, counter movement is free to choose.
     
    Matt likes this.
  12. Matt

    Matt Member

    Likewise how I teach. We usually define the attacker to one or a few attacking moves, but the defender may defend themselves however they see fit. That means they have the option of going with simple escape and run techniques, or soft style defenses such as wrist controls or hard style self defense such as striking which would include the dirty aspect of selfdefense.
     
  13. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    So do you include them or not?


    Wheat I agree with what you said isn't this something that can be said for just about anything, in the case of the pain resistance attacker like you described, you are better off making an exit if possible

    The issues of aliveness is a good one, depending on how a person understands it.

    Yeah this is similar to the way I teach, but I leave it a little more open, almost like sparring and leave the dirty/low skill techniques as an option
     
  14. John Hulslander

    John Hulslander Active Member

    Finlay,
    Since sef defense is not a large part of our curriculum we do not.
    If it were, we would.
     
  15. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    I always try to wash my hands and feet regularly so none of my techniques are dirty.

    OK - lame humor aside - I think the term "dirty fighting" has evolved over time, and might not even apply today. Centuries ago, among civilized men, fighting over a dispute was conducted according to some rules of proper behavior - - no kicking, biting, sucker punching, pulling hair, pulling a guys shirt over his head, throwing dirt in his eyes, no weapons of any kind if he is unarmed, and of course... never hit a guy when he's down. However, almost anyone who was ever in a fight for their life would have thrown all the rules out the window, even back years ago and among the most 'civilized' combatants. By today's standards, I think most people feel that if you are not in a sporting event, and someone attacks you, they deserve what they get, and it is appropriate and fair to use whatever means necessary to win a fight and survive.

    I teach a balanced program of Martial Art education to develop the student as a whole person (body, mind, & spirit) with "integrity" meaning "complete, without flaw, and lacking nothing." This includes morals, ethics, and philosophy of life as well as anything and everything that can possibly be useful to defend yourself and survive. This is of particular importance for children who might be abducted, and do not have the size or strength to fight off an adult attacker, and many women faced with a much stronger male committing battery, or sexual assault.

    Since attackers in the street don't typically follow any rules, I don't see any reason why the Martial Artist should be placed at a disadvantage by following some archaic notion that a fight should be 'fair,' and to avoid certain options simply because it is deemed "dirty fighting" or unfair tactics. I believe that the advanced skills of a properly trained Martial Artist will generally prevail based on the science of the art, but that takes time to develop, and can still meet up with occasional slip-ups. There is no reason not to teach, practice, and use it all. I don't call it "dirty" - - just smart, resourceful, and unfettered.

    GMC Eisenhart
    Blue Knight Taekwondo
     
  16. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    This is a fairly broad statement, and I don't know any arts that rely solely on those particular things

    "Dirty fighting is not always moremember effective. There are a lot of mainstream "clean" strikes that if done well are as if not more effective.

    I do teach a lot of low skill techniques biting etc. But it is mainly for times when it is there and not much else. I fought a skilled grappler and when there was nothing else simple to do I started biting him. I worked but it wasn't something that I really wanted to do
     
  17. maryf

    maryf New Member

    there is always very thin line between right and wrong so it do depends on techniques, but understanding as well in martial arts.o_O
     
  18. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member


    What?
     

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