joint locks dont work on bigger stronger people

Discussion in 'Self Defense' started by michael mckenna, Oct 21, 2013.

  1. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    so i was looking about after a conversation i had about joint locks if they were use full for self defense i had the thought if you were weak either small and weak or tall and weak they wouldnt be use full and then i found a thread about it and thought you guys may be interested in discussing it on here so here is the thread and lets get the conversations started :)

    http://transformetrics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12202
     
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  3. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    If you have good technique, then they will work. I grapple with people smaller and weaker than me weekly and they can and do submit me with armbars, kimuras, americanas, etc

    Royce Gracie proved this in the early 90's when many of his opponent's were bigger and stronger. And he wasn't even the best of the Gracie family at the time.

    Also, what do we mean by joint locks? Standing, on the ground? On our backs, on top? Wrist locks included in the topic? I don't think all joint locks are created equally and there are many unrealistic ones taught along with low percentage techniques.
     
    Narcsarge likes this.
  4. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    Well, it certainly helps to be strong, but joint locks definitely work. Sometimes its getting it on a stronger opponent that is hard. At the end of an armbar you have to be very very strong to muscle out of it, but in the moments before its applied you could escape. This is why i think its important people have a good strength program if they are interested in self defense.
     
    Narcsarge, Ivor and michael mckenna like this.
  5. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member


    can definetly agree with that when i start teaching i will be stressing the important of developing strength in every part of your body even the fingers. im currently making my fingers stronger by using some old school methods i can do 12 push ups on the tips of my fingers. before i start crying cos it really hurts lmao
     
  6. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    some joint lock do wortk. strangley i have just finished a course on them. as long as you don't go looking for the lock that can take too much attention away from other things

    my question is this

    when or why would you want to apply a joint lock?

    there are of course time when they are applicable but i am interested in hearing other people's view
     
  7. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    Depending on the location, some joint locks don't really use much strength. Some are just locking system that can't be broken (because it makes use the target's body part to lock himself). Well, an extremely stronger person can lift the locker's body and probably throw him, but the lock won't break if he insists (but it's already a dangerous situation and joint lock is a bad choice for such a case). I've seen some complicated locks that work even for extremely stronger person by locking both arm and leg, but it's very hard to get the chance of doing it. Escaping would probably a better strategy.
     
  8. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    Many, if not most joint locks are designed to work on bigger, stronger people, they are designed to put stress on weak points by trying to make them move in directions they are not designed to move. If I place a wrist lock on someone twice my size, he may be stronger than me overall but I am stronger than his wrist. When done correctly it does not take much to turn a joint lock into joint destruction. When I was about 16 (still over 6 foot tall) I showed a 10 year old (small for his age too) a type of wrist lock and he nearly broke my wrist so yeah they can work on bigger, stronger people.
     
  9. Foggy

    Foggy Active Member

    Just throwing this straight in as a straight reply to the title.

    If you are doing it properly then they do.
     
    Gnarlie likes this.
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    This ^
     
  11. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    if you just walk up to some one and try to put a lock on them then very few if any work. they need to be worked in to what you are doing.

    I think too often people see thing as wrist locks and the like as a way of very 'clean' fighting. no one gets hurt and i'll just hold him down and talk him out of what he was going to do to me with that big knife.
     
    Gnarlie likes this.
  12. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    The same applies to pressure points as well as wrist locks. They support and potentially improve technique that already works without them.

    I firmly believe that the learning of these skills should move from big to small. Starting with controlling your own balance, then controlling your balance while manipulating another person's full body weight over their feet, then controlling their shoulder, then the elbow, then the wrist, then the fingers. Pressure point stuff is last on the agenda, but can help with each port of call along the way. I think a lot of instructors try to teach this the other way around i.e. controlling the body weight by (perhaps using pressure points to) manipulate the hand, then the elbow, the shoulder, etc. That way round, it only works if the full body weight is already in motion and out of balance, and if the practitioner is very proficient already. Teaching it that way round encourages working from too great a distance resulting in ineffective technique without a compliant opponent.

    I think wrist locks and pressure points get a bad rap, mainly because they are sometimes poorly and unrealistically taught. From a student's perspective, they are a very difficult 'knack' to grasp, especially when taught small to large. Taught as a natural follow-up to a covering block versus a realistic punching attack or clothing grab & punch, pulling or pushing the attacker out of balance and then beginning to work from the shoulder out through the elbow to the hand at extremely close range, wrist locks and pressure points certainly do the business. This is especially true when ongoing short hand, elbow and knee strikes are worked into the process.

    So yeah, I agree with Finlay. They need to be worked in to what you are doing.
     
  13. Gazzer

    Gazzer Active Member

    I thought you just learn them to all be part of a bigger picture?? most wrist grabs and locks wouldnt (per say) do much good in the real world, still, gets us through gradings :D no technique is any good unless it comes naturally.
     
  14. canadiankyosa

    canadiankyosa Active Member

    locks and throws rely on the aikido and judo priciples of yu wa won and your body weight. If done properly, they can work on any sized person. as stated, though, they ear not a primary defence tactic. Same as anything, you look for the opening and flow into them. A note on hand strength: the thumb and pinky are not capable of being overly strengthened. They will be close to equal on everyone, even women.
     
  15. Narcsarge

    Narcsarge New Member

    As a retired Law Enforcement officer I would use locks and throws to incapacitate and restrain rather hurt and do damage. If one is dealing with an opponent that will not yield to a lock (they'd rather struggle then submit or they are on drugs/alcohol) then you may have to do damage to take the fight out them. It's been my experience that most people want to quit when limbs and joints are pushed to the breaking point. Never assume that just because some "taps" that it means they won't fight once the lock is loosened. Many will
     
    bowlie likes this.
  16. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member


    would drugs and alcohol not hinder the feeling of tension in the persons joints. so would it be safe to assume a joint lock will need to be followed up with a strike, submission or throw in that situation ?. i know that i can cant feel the tension until the limp breaks as very few can which makes practicing techniques with someone like me usefull but dangerous to the people who dont know that that is the case.
     
  17. Narcsarge

    Narcsarge New Member

    Drugs and alcohol can and do cause people to not feel the pain/discomfort of many pain compliance techniques. Of course that is why tazers and pepper spray are carried. Never go hands on w/ someone who may be on drugs or alcohol if it can be avoided. Also, extremely strong people, getting back to the original post, may make it harder for someone to apply a lock or pain compliance technique but it is not impossible. Very strong people may be able to muscle out of technique if they are quick enough or the technique is not done accurately. To this date, I have yet to see a properly applied technique not work on normal people...weak or strong.
     
    Gnarlie likes this.
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I don't look at joint locks as solely pain compliance techniques. Certainly they can cause pain but I don't view the pain as the main motivator for a person to 'comply' - there are other factors that contribute, right?

    For example, it's a lot easier to lead someone to the ground with a lock if you've just deadlegged them and they aren't able to balance effectively - just lead in the weak direction, no pain required.
     
  19. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    to go right up to the orginal post, it stated that a weak person could not do joint locks. The following statement seemed to concentrate on beng weaker than the attacker.

    Just a point on this, there is a difference between a weak person and being weaker than the person attacking you, and if you are talking about joint locks it is a fairly important difference.
     
  20. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    Position before submission.

    There's an idea in many traditional arts that with things like wrist locks and finger locks, you can control a tree at the trunk by attacking a twig at the limb and that is not true for the most part. You have to climb the tree and then cut off the limb.
     
  21. Matt

    Matt Member

    I am a shorter person, and I can tell you that you can use pretty much any technique you want to a certain point. You just have to hit hard first. If I can't overpower you, then I'm going to soften you up first, like stomping the feet or striking the face, then go into my wrist and joint locks.
     

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