otkoreo araemakki explanation

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by Brent Read, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    Hi can anyone explain clearly otkoreo araemakki in tageuk 7. I'm struggling to find any solution.
    Even "The Explanation of Taekwondo Poomsae" doesn't clarify it.
    Thanks in advance
  2. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    I could explain it. My question would be, do you have an instructor? I'm curious as to why your instructor, when teaching you Taegeuk Chil Jang for your next promotion, wouldn't be able to explain this one to you. I sometimes help people online to clarify confusion about Taekwondo, but I believe it is irresponsible to teach technical knowledge over the internet. It is the responsibility of an Instructor to teach their own students when the Instructor feels you are ready. What is the status of your education in Taekwondo, and are you working with a teacher. Why is this technique (엇걸어아래막기: Eotgeoleo Arae Makgi) confusing to you?

    Blue Knight
  3. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    Hi, I live in the southern most city of New Zealand and quite frankly all our instructions have been very poor. New Zealand as a whole has been living in the 70's (quoted by a Korean Poomsae instructor). I am a 1st Dan Black Belt and Vice President of our club. Our previous Instructor (a 4th Dan) has left with a new black belt taking over as President. We have gone to a couple of Poomsae Seminars held by Koreans ( Beautiful to watch and in a league of their own), but just wanted a couple of points clarified. I picked up on most of the instructions but read that otkoreo araemakki ( spelling quoted from "The Explanation of the Official Taekwondo Poomsae) is not a cross block but an assisted block, yet watching official Kukkiwon videos it sure looks like a x block.
    I haven't found a video or anything that give any explanation for it and thought I'd go fishing for an answer.
  4. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    Hello Mr. Read. I commend you for being so diligent as to attend seminars, and working hard to earn your first Dan. As for the way things are in New Zealand, I grew up in the 60’s and 70’s, and compared to the problems of today, I wouldn’t necessarily say that living in the 70’s is a bad thing, but I understand your frustration with the lack of senior leadership in your Taekwondo training. Keep attending approved Kukkiwon and WTF seminars, and in time, you will be one of the knowledgeable Masters that your fellow countrymen turn to for guidance.

    I’ll see what I can do to help you a little.

    The explanation of poomsae, and the technique’s application in each jang might vary depending on who you talk with. I have trained with many Korean Grandmasters affiliated with the Kukkiwon, and have participated in many referee seminars as an Olympic Referee certified by the WTF. My Instructor is Sr. Grandmaster Edward Sell (Kukkiwon 9th Dan, and founder of the U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association). His instructor, Grandmaster Hae Man Park, is one of the individuals who helped create the Taegeuk Poomsae, and I have done several seminars with him.

    In answer to your question, to my understanding, the technique you refer to is a “cross low block” and is typically used to stop an upward attack, such as a front kick. In western schools, it is sometimes called an “X” block. The Korean term 엇걸어 means “cross.” As for the English spelling, the phonetic translation of Korean Hangeul has varied over the past few decades since most westerners could not read Hangeul, and most Koreans Instructors did not have a strong grasp of the English language. Therefore, many of the terms today are still being spelled in their earlier, less than accurate ways, even in official textbooks, and on the Kukkiwon website (sometimes I wonder who is doing the translations).

    In modern Romanization, the Korean vowel is usually being written as “eo” and pronounced more like “aw” so as not to confuse it with the long “o” sound of this vowel . South Korean dialect is different from North Korean, and the preference is to use a hard consonant at the beginning of a syllable, and the softer sound at the end. Such as the term “Taegeuk” where “geuk” is spelled . The first consonant is identical to the last consonant with the vowel (eu) in the middle. However the first is written and pronounced as a hard “g” while the last is written and pronounced as a soft “k” sound.

    In the term 엇걸어, the first syllable starts with an “eo” vowel and ends with the “s” which is pronounced like a “t” when it is at the end of a syllable. The second syllable starts with a hard “g” followed by the “eo” vowel, and ends with the “l” to form “geol.” The last syllable is simply the “eo” vowel. Thus, 엇걸어 = eot - geol - eo. (eotgeoleo) although it is still sometimes written a variety of ways. 아래 (arae) means underneath or low section, and 막기 (makgi) means block.

    So, 엇걸어아래막기 (eot-geol-eo a-rae mak-gi) means “cross low block” or low section “X block.” Now, there is nothing really to stop someone from interpreting this as trapping a kick or low punch with an “assisted” low block in a “crossed” or “X” position, but it is basically the same thing. It is like calling a “low block” an “underneath block.” It means the same thing. However, the “assisted” blocks usually have a palm or fore-fist pushing against the forearm of the blocking hand, and not crossed like a “eotgeoleo” cross block. Next time I speak with Grandmaster Hae Man Park, I'll see if I can get his explanation directly.

    I hope this helps you.

    Blue Knight
  5. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    My background is originally Hapkido I've had the pleasure of learning 3 different styles, but never to Black belt as they always folded, so the cross block is very familiar to me and has a very practical application that works very well when used correctly.
    I guess in my search for knowledge on how to do patterns correctly I came across this http://www.rso.cornell.edu/taekwondo/docs/USAT Poomsae Guidelines.pdf
    Which states "The moves 16 & 19 are reinforced down blocks, otkoreo arae makki, Not "X" blocks."
    Hench my confusion.
    Thanks in advance.

  6. Chris Thoen

    Chris Thoen New Member

    I think Brent is right. We learned it was a cross block in the beginning, later on, when the Korean Kukkiwon masters came to Europe to promote the first World Championship poomse, it was explained as reinforced down block.
    Also, both techniques are performed totally different : with the X-clock, both fists start from each side of the body, with the reinforced down block, both fists start from the same side, the reinforcing arm on top of the one doing the block.
    So I think Brent's confusion has nothing to do with a proper translation or whatever, it's just that the technique changed in time.

  7. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    Thanks Chris,
    I think the penny has dropped. As you stated a cross block is from the sides and the reinforced block is from one side.
  8. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    So last thing.
    Otgoreo Makki and Otkoreo Arae Makki must be different blocks then. The first a cross block and a Reinforced block for the second? Otgoreo Makki is in the Official Kukkiwon DVD as a cross block but no reference to Otkoreo area makki
  9. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    otgoro makki is just "cross block". In the kukkiwon system you have three kinds of otgoro makki (allthough rarely taught or trained).

    Otgoro arae makki is cross block in the low section. It is usually taught with with the fists on the hips and then shoot straight forward and down and cross each other at the wrists. In Chil Jang it is done with both fists on one side instead, hence why some say it is a reinforced low block as one of the arms make a somewhat arae makki.

    The second is middle section not seen in any poomsae in the system but I think it is in Kukkiwon Textbook and it was taught to me as a "checking block".

    The third one is otgoro eulgul makki wich is a crossed block one fist length from your forehead. It is not seen untill the last pattern of Kukkiwon Taekwondo Illyo. I think this clip is the most clear one out there on Chil Jang (and most forms as the instructor stops with each new technique and explains how it is done. The teacher in this clip is one of the most respected and highly ranked masters of Kukkiwon Taekwondo so he is a great resource to look at your forms and how to do them:

    Brent Read likes this.
  10. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Great piece to watch and the simularities in hip twist with relaxation to tension are great to see. 2.08 particulary in show.
  11. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    Although I answered this question above, others attempted to provide contrary opinions, so I am bumping this thread up to make a clarification.

    This is incorrect information.

    Be careful as to whose penny you are listening to drop.

    Two days ago, I attended a Poomsae seminar in Michigan conducted by Grandmaster Hae-Man Park, Vice President of the World Chung Do Kwan Association and one of the designers of the Taegeuk Poomsae. As usual, he made several corrections on stances and techniques to the many Black Belts and Masters in attendance.

    Having remembered this question raised here in this thread, I prepared for the seminar by printing out the entire Chil Jang written description in Korean Hangeul from the Kukkiwon website, and highlighted the two examples of eotgeoleo makgi in the following.

    16 2 3 오른앞굽이 왼발물려디뎌 엇걸어아래막기

    19 3 3 왼앞굽이 오른발물려디뎌 엇걸어아래막기

    I showed GM Park the printout, and specifically asked him if this move was an eotgeoleo arae makgi (엇걸어아래막기) “crossed block” performed in the low section, or geoteuleo arae makgi (거들어아래막기) a “reinforced low block.”

    His answer was very clear as he said “No geoteuleo makgi! Eotgeoleo makgi.”

    Meaning… No reinforced block! It is a cross block.

    During the seminar, GM Park demonstrated this move showing that the underneath hand moves the same as a low block (arae makgi), but the upper hand is twisted to create a downward force with both forearms in an “X” or “cross” block. Even though both hands start on the same hip, the resulting action is still intended to be a downward thrust, trapping a low punch to the abdomen, or a low kick in a cross block rather than a single low block that is simply reinforced.

    Blue Knight
  12. Brent Read

    Brent Read New Member

    Cheers. I guess this video depicts it all as you stated.
    This is the author of "The Explanation of Official Taekwondo Poomsae" and the 1st Gold medalist of the WTF Poomsae championship.

  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Double post
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Hi Blue Knight, I have a specific question relating to this block that it would be great if you can answer. Did you see Hae Man Park's chamber position for the motion?

    My question is, should the chamber position be jageun doltzeogi, meaning the hands would have to cross in flight for the underneath (lead leg side) hand to perform a low block type motion? Or is the chamber position similar to jageun doltzeogi, but with the hands the other way around?

    By this I mean, for left leg forward, the hands chamber on the right side of the body in Jageun Doltzeogi, with the left hand on top and the right at the belt. During the motion the hands would have to switch around to put the left hand underneath the right....can that be? Or do we chamber the right hand on top at the right?

    I've seen several different chambers for the motion in my time....I'm convinced that the chamber happens on one side of the body, but not sure which way around. In the Chil Jang video earlier in the thread, it looks like right hand on top...so not jageun doltzeogi....this has long been source of puzzlement for me. What's your view?
  15. Aidan84

    Aidan84 New Member

    I've always wondered what the point of the technique is in the context of the form. If memory serves, you've just kneed them in the face, double punched them... surely to god at this point they aren't in a position to throw a front kick! ;-)
    Gnarlie likes this.
  16. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    No they aren't, but they are likely to be bent forward and in a position to be either collar choked or struck to the back of the neck with that X block motion. Under application, with cause and effect at play, it's an interesting sequence. If you actually pull the head forward for the knee to the solar plexus or the face, then the double punch that follows can only be either to the collarbones, or reaching under the chest to grab clothing pre-X block. This leaves an opportunity to either break / seriously injure both collar bones then strike twin pressure points on the back side of the neck with the 'block', or grab clothing with the 'punch' motion, and use the clothing to pull a collar choke behind the neck with the X block motion, or lead to a neck crank / throw with the following turn.

    Neither of those represent the official KKW definition, but those are my experiences with the practicability of the motions.

    I've also found hecho makki to be fairy ineffective as an actual wedging block between the opponent's strangling arms. I find it more effective at garnering a release when it's brought up high between the arms, with the elbow points into the opponents Lung 5 pressure points. This causes the opponents head to come forward slightly and leaves him open to a twin eye strike as we reach forward to grab the head prior to the knee.

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