Poomsae - movement timing

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by ssiidd, Oct 8, 2013.

  1. ssiidd

    ssiidd Active Member

    Hi All,
    Referring to WTF poomsae specifically - what is the correct time-spacing between movements? and what would be the best way to practice this? Often performing poomsae I feel I am either going too fast or too slow. Someone suggested the spacing between two moves should be one breath (in-out) i.e. inhale on load, exhale on execution but then how long should the inhale/exhale be?

    To practice poomsae is there a pattern I can follow such as a correctly timed beat for instance? I am currently working on power and precision of movements, at some point I would want to bring everything together into a well-timed poomsae.

    Thanks.
     
    Tom.D and Melody like this.
  2. Melody

    Melody Member

    Yes, me too.....if anybody has an answer I would like to know as well!
     
    Tom.D likes this.
  3. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    Heya ssiidd and Melody, I dont study W.T.F myself but I did find this page that may be able to help with your timing as it has poomsae videos for each form?: http://www.taekwondoanimals.com/taekwondo-forms.asp . I hope it helps you and i'm sorry I couldn't be of more help.
     
    Melody and UK-Student like this.
  4. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    It depends on the pattern. Typically for the Taegeuk forms, the rhythm is quite uniform tick-tock, like a metronome, but with some double time where combinations occur, and some sections where we are on the off beat. This may be easier if you are a musician? They are typically a lot slower than their Chang Hon / ITF counterparts. Aim for one-onethousand-two-onethousand counting in a relaxed fashion, sometimes hitting the off-beat with combinations, for example with Il Jang:

    One-onethousand
    Low Block on the beat
    Two-onethousand
    Punch on the beat
    Three-onethousand
    Low block on the beat
    Four-onethousand
    Punch on the beat
    Five-onethousand
    Low block on the beat, punch on the 'thou' of thousand
    After that, you would continue on the 'thou' of 'six-onethousand' with the middle block.

    Alternatively expressed, that's:

    Tick, Tock, Tick, Tock, Tick-tock

    Experiment and a natural, comfortable rhythm will present itself.

    From Koryo onwards, the timing is definitely a feature of the pattern and needs a lot of work with a good instructor.

    Avoid connecting breath to movement except where a kihap is required as part of the form. Otherwise, aim to keep breathing uniform, slow and deep across the pattern. Connecting exhalation to every movement cultivates a bad habit that will be hard to break later when it is necessary to do so for the higher patterns.

    Depends on the form and how it breaks down into it's component pooms (groups / combinations of motions). It's best to ask one of your black belts. Don't rely on online videos - the pedagogical nature of tutorial videos is such that the pattern is often slowed down and made too rhythmic. Even viewing high level competition doesn't really help as the requirements for competition will be different from those of your own instructor - this is a very personal aspect of poomsae, which has been somewhat over-prescribed for competition purposes in my opinion.

    Edit:

    2 thoughts - firstly, I'm not implying that the low block and punch in Il jang are a combination. Secondly, you should never sacrifice quality of technique to preserve the metronome like rhythm of a form. For example, the kicks in Il Jang break the metronome like quality unless you really rush them, which you shouldn't. In this way, the forms teach broken rhythm.
     
    Melody likes this.
  5. ssiidd

    ssiidd Active Member

    Thanks for the responses.

    Gnarlie, thanks sir for the detailed explanation. Sorry, I should have been clearer I was indeed referring to the Taeguek forms.

    You are absolutely right when you say combinations break the rhythm. I tend to find myself rushing through moves especially where kicks are involved and have been trying to force myself to slow down a bit.

    I will try the one-onethousand suggestion, I just ran through Il-Jang in my head counting that way and it felt a lot better.

    I have been asking seniors for advice and working with them where possible. Unfortunately there tend to be subtle differences in technique, style, rhythm that makes it difficult for me to follow. I will approach my instructor to see if we can start spending some time working on poomsae.

    I have a few more questions around poomsae (hijacking my own thread).

    1- When punching, I find it difficult for my reaction had to add power/speed to the punching hand. I am told the correct way to punch/block is to use the reaction hand correct which adds power and speed to the technique. Both arms feel disconnected form one another. I feel this affects the way I do my poomsae

    2- In Chil-jang, towards the end (second to last move) when doing the sitting stance side block (knife hand), again, I am told the movement should have sufficient power (enough to produce a sound from the sleeve of my dobok). It seems almost impossible, I have practiced it dozens of times.

    Thanks :)
     
  6. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    Working With an instructor is the absolutely best way of Learning and perfecting the Poomsae. You come to Your intstructor to teach you something not so that you have to teach yourself (this changes a little when you get passed black belt and need to take more responsability for Your own Development though).

    I think personally that the reaction hand is missunderstood. It does provide more Power in Application if you use it as illustrated in early Works like Henry Cho`s 1968 book but I do not see how it does so in "air practise". Maybe I have internalised the reaction hand to the point where I no longer feel it though so I am open to the possibillity that I am mistaken. I would work on coordination if I felt like my movements were unharmonized as no matter what School of thought you have (increase Power by providing a reaction force/ newtionian thought or practical Application thought) both arms need to work in unison With the other.

    The snap in the uniform is a very poor way to judge Power. If it is the sound of the Dobok they are judging Power from I can give you one advice that will give you a 100% increase in Power: "Use starch!" It is really that simple. You will get Your sound before you know it:) You should be more concerned With how much actual Power you have in Your moves. Try the Block out on a Heavy bag or a Kwon Go or something. Or better yet, have someone hold a phonebook tight to their chest and strike them With Your Block at full force. They can then give you live feedback. Another tip I can give is to remember to use Your hips as well as upper body to develop Power. This is often overlooked because you are standing in riding stance and do not move anywhere before the NeXT technique takes Place:) Good Luck:)
     
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  7. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    1) As Oerjan says, that reaction hand effect is really only obvious under application. What air practice does do is indirectly focus the mind on one side of the body thrusting forward and the other side pulling back - causing shoulder and waist twist with the right timing to add power to the punch. So yeah, go with Oerjans suggestion and focus on waist twisting, and the hands have no option but to act and react.
    2) Waist twist will do it. The clack sound comes not from power but from acceleration; how fast can you get that hand moving initially, and how fast can you stop it dead... (negative acceleration). It's your wrist stopping dead and your dobok continuing until it clicks against the wrist. You dobok material and starchiness is a factor, as is the path your hand takes - straighter flight paths are easier to accelerate and stop. Experiment.

    Edit: also, it doesn't work with shorter sleeves
     
    Melody likes this.
  8. Melody

    Melody Member

    "Heya ssiidd and Melody, I dont study W.T.F myself but I did find this page that may be able to help with your timing as it has poomsae videos for each form?: http://www.taekwondoanimals.com/taekwondo-forms.asp . I hope it helps you and i'm sorry I couldn't be of more help."

    Thank you Tom.D! I looked at this website and feel like I struck the jackpot. So many questions broken down and answered. It's a shame that we never have enough time in class to break things down this specifically so it will be an amazing study tool for me.

    Thank you everyone for the advice as well. As a musician, the very first thing I did was try to discern a consistent tempo but there was none. So now I have begun to only listen to the snapping sounds of my preferred study video and then try to mimic the timing aurally without the distraction of sight. Of course the form must be memorized first to practice this way. I'm working on #6.
     
  9. Melody

    Melody Member

    Also, how do I make my quotation appear in the yellow color like everyone does?
     
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    [quote="Melody, post: 7844, member: 980" ]Also, how do I make my quotation appear in the yellow color like everyone does?[/quote ]
    Use the 'reply' function on a PC, or the 'quote' function via tapatalk on a mobile device.

    I added in some spaces above so you can see what it does.
     
  11. Melody

    Melody Member

    @Gnarlie
    I only have an iPad and have never heard of a "tapatalk" function.
     
  12. ssiidd

    ssiidd Active Member

    It is a community reader app you can download from the appstore :)
     
    Melody likes this.
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    @Melody

    Use the 'reply' link on the far right of the person's post that you wish to reply to:

    View attachment 49

    Instead of just using this 'Post Reply' button:

    View attachment 50
     
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    My picture uploads may not have worked...
     
  15. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    You're more than welcome Melody and glad I could help you. It's a great site and has plenty of Taekwondo related info on it :D and fair play to all the members of this forum that could give you more exact information on the timing question.
     
  16. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    I have a question of my own if thats ok? How do I copy a piece of another members post( not all of it but something similar to the reply button) and post it like a quote in yellow so I can reply to it, just like Mr Oerjan has done above?
     
  17. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    The reply button adds a code bracket before the quote and one att the end [/quote]

    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.
     
  18. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.[/quote]

    Ahh, cheers for that Gnarlie sir. I will see if I can do it with a little experiment :D
    The reply button adds a code bracket before the quote and one att the end [/quote]
    thats the first part copied and pasted
    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.
    and this is the second part. fingers crossed I've done it right.
     
  19. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    Ahh, cheers for that Gnarlie sir. I will see if I can do it with a little experiment :D
    The reply button adds a code bracket before the quote and one att the end [/quote]
    thats the first part copied and pasted
    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.
    and this is the second part. fingers crossed I've done it right.[/quote]

    that didn't work, so I will put a space between lines. maybe thats where I'm going wrong!

    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.[/quote]

    Attempt number 2 coming up!
     
  20. Tom.D

    Tom.D Active Member

    thats the first part copied and pasted
    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.
    and this is the second part. fingers crossed I've done it right.[/quote]

    that didn't work, so I will put a space between lines. maybe thats where I'm going wrong!

    These can be copied and pasted as appropriate to break up the quote with you own comments.[/quote]

    Attempt number 2 coming up![/quote]

    Ok, I've made a mess of that so I will post up a topic asking there instead of here so as to keep on topic "Poomsae - movement timing" originally posted by ssiidd. sorry for any inconvenience caused!
     

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