possible pattern applications any thoughts ?

Discussion in 'The Video Room' started by michael mckenna, Dec 9, 2013.

  1. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    here is some possible applications of parts of patterns any thoughts on these would be helpfull especially from chang hon practitioners


    now i found all these applications interesting please share your thoughts
    Gnarlie likes this.
  2. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    Personally, I don't agree with the applications of any of those. Not because the "application" doesn't work per se but the situations that the applications work for are unrealistic or unlikely. Like the double wrist grab from behind defense, in all my days as a teenager seeing people fist fight, and all my time in martial arts and grappling I have never seen this situation. Unless you count a police officer trying to cuff you, but then they have controlled your position in other ways so this wouldn't even apply.
  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I sort of agree with Raymond. The wrist grab scenario is pretty unlikely in reality, but it does serve as a passable analogy for other types of attack, such as a clothing grab at the lapel for the first video, where the application shown is still functional to a degree.

    However, I think his distancing in that application off to the point of rendering the technique ineffective against a resistive opponent, and using one hand only for the pull is an unnecessary risk. I understand that he is doing it like that to make the application look like the form, but the principle shown is a lot safer closer in, with both hands engaged, and using the legs and bodyweight to do the pulling rather than pulling with the arm at arm's length. Any kind of resistance there would effectively stop him from doing what he is trying to do. The other applications suffer from similar flaws. I'm not saying that they couldn't work against resistance, but they won't in their current form.

    I fully agree about the double wrist grab from behind- highly unlikely - application of the same sequence is more likely to be versus a jab / cross combination, with the first high knife hand block covering the cross with the left hand to the side of the neck.

    The wrist lock counter only works because they are in a corridor. A crucial principle of the wrist lock technique is missing due to that - pulling the opponent forwards off balance. Unfortunately, that's the only reason the counter is working. Against a skilled wrist locker, not a chance.
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2013
  4. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    Good observations Gnarlie.

    I'd also like to add that against a resisting opponent you would be shocked at how hard the off balance by pulling the arm and chambering at the waist.
  5. michael mckenna

    michael mckenna Active Member

    good thing most thugs are not skilled at anything except bullying and making people afraid
  6. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Also true, it can be quite tricky, but doable with a combination of strikes and the right distancing and footwork. Shifting someone else's body weight is pretty much a two handed job even at very close range.
  7. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I've encountered only people who have trained in something, sad to say. It's folly to assume a minimal level of knowledge in you opponent.

    I can think of two violent encounters I have had where manipulation of the opponent's limb could have helped.

    In one instance my left hand was grabbed accompanied by the threat of broken fingers. At the time I didn't know how to react, but a simple turn and arm bar would have helped. As it was, a turn and only-half-planned semi accidental throw over a low wall did the job long enough to run off.

    In the second instance my clothing was grabbed whilst standing still in order to prevent me from leaving during a confrontation with a group. I misread the threat level I got punched in the face for my trouble, then ran off at the first opportunity.

    Sometimes those bullying behaviours lead people to do things that are pretty easy to counter. Because bullying and intimidation often involve groups and the threat of violence rather than actual violence, there's a bit more room to react. It still hard to deal with adrenaline though, and wrist lock techniques in a group scenario are somewhat limited in their usefulness.
    Anthony Hayward likes this.

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    This is another classic case of looking for something that isn't there. Just because something looks vaguely like it does in a pattern and can be done with significant modification, doesn't make it an application. Then he is using those moves and applying them poorly to inappropriate situations.

    Take the first video for example, the low and high section block can be used to block a front kick and then a downward strike and can be used exactly like it is in the pattern and is a legitimate application but the one he showed could not. First the downward strike to the arm went vertically down but the low section block travels in an arc across the body and the raising block he used was just a glancing blow and would not have done much, an elbow would have been much more effective. His downward block would have been more like the downward forearm block in Kodang. A doughnut is bigger than my mouth but I could jam the whole thing in to make it fit if I really wanted to, that kinda reminds me of what he is doing.
    Gnarlie likes this.
  9. Raymond

    Raymond Active Member

    I dunno how it is in Europe, but in North America you will be hard pressed to find someone who hasn't at least had SOME form of combat sports. From boxing, kickboxing, karate, wrestling, TKD etc. Plus with the explosion in popularity of MMA, the days of the wild haymaker bar brawler are fading. You know will see drunken idiots trying to double collar tie each other, knees, sloppy double leg take downs, leg kicks etc. Monkey see, monkey do.

    This will be wildly unpopular, but to be honest I would place my money on a good, tough Rugby player over a lot of trained martial artists I know.

    It might be media sensationalism here in the States, but I can think of about 3 or 4 videos where a news station has reported "local man stops robbery using "Ultimate Fighting Techniques!" when the reality of it is some crack head tried to rob a store unarmed and some random arm chair MMA fan held the guy with a rear choke until police came. The reporting is ignorant while at the same time the "good Samaritan" is a fool for mimicking what he sees on TV. We had the same problem in the States in the 1990's when news reports were all over of people and kids hurting each other with Pro-wrestling moves.
    Anthony Hayward likes this.
  10. Oerjan

    Oerjan Active Member

    I have not have the chance to look through the videos but I trust Gnarlies comments:) I do think that he should be respected in that he is seeking and thinking outside the box though and more importantly he is sharing his knowledge. The result will hopefully become better over time but then again we all start somewhere. I know I have developed my share of awfull interpretations to my poomsae (that I have discarded over time).
    Gnarlie likes this.
  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Me three.
  12. TKD_KidHof2014

    TKD_KidHof2014 New Member

    I do have to agree with the wrist grab. One but this is my internal arts training coming into play with my background being in also Hapkido and Tai Chi, never resist. And clearly he was resisting in that video with coming up into a double knife block as in the form. Now can you do advance applications from poomse. Absolutely!!!!! And the other thing is from the above example how is that double wrist grab suited for women as well?? Its not.
  13. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member

    I looked through the videos, it is great that he is looking for application that are a bit different, but I don't like some of what he showed. The double grab from behind was especially messy and the knife hand follow up is illogical.

    The do San high low block is close to what I interpret the movement as but a little different and again he misses with the rising block/strike

    I really don't agree with this statement at all. Someone who is use to fighting can be very skilled even if they have no formal training.

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