Taekwondo grappling

Discussion in 'General Taekwondo Discussions' started by bowlie, Feb 26, 2013.

  1. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    I was wondering what you think of the grappling found within TKD. In our club we do it semi-regulary and its fun, but having done BJJ for 6 months before starting its not to a particularly high standard.

    I personally think the addition of standing grappling and throws in moderation would be really benificial to the sport as practitioners would no longer be able to avoid working on their close combat game.

    So yeah, do you do any grappling, enjoy it, or think it should be added to sparring?

    Also, does anyone know a place that lists all the grappling techniques of taekwondo (appart from the encyclopedia because thats too expensive). Im really interested in learning more about it and refining the grappling.
  2. UK-Student

    UK-Student Active Member

    As far as calling it "TKD", I would love to add a grappling element to a class but I think to make it about a submission sport would be a little disingenuous to TKD's roots. Defending yourself from the ground in self defence is an application of hosinsool but looking for an armbar from the bottom is only questionably so. Also, considering most TKD people will train in these positions very infrequently, I think whatever you include is best limited to the very basics, with limited techniques mostly based on position and always in the context of strikes (which is not to say that you must allow strikes, merely that you must disallow any approaches which ignore the possibility of strikes).

    This would never be to a high standard but since the opponent is considered to be untrained in the context of self defence, it doesn't really have to be subtle or efficient so long as it is strong and works. Who would not like to work on getting up from the ground if needed? As such, it shouldn't be added to sport-sparring because one is sport and one is self defence. However, if you have a self defence scenario training with resisting opponents and it continues on the ground if you go there, then that would be a way of moving from a stand up style to grappling.

    I am never very impressed when a TKD instructor tries to show me a complicated lock from the bottom without the support system of basic skills learned through proper grappling arts. Someone here in BC showed a silly movement and the guy he was trying it on just popped out into top position and exposed how foolish he was. Half-assed, half-learnt sport grappling is not on my hit list.

    As far as saying, we offer TKD and BJJ and you can train in both and we have qualified instructors in both, that's great. No problems with that. I also think TKD has something to offer to an MMA class.

    BTW the encyclopedia has almost no grappling techniques (from memory it has none that are realistic, though some workable throws). You can find free copies of the encyclopedia online (go to blue cottage tkd).
    Johnno likes this.
  3. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    Interesting point. The distinction between self defence and fighting is something im only just giving any credit, and im still forming my views on it so I cant comment, but its an interesting point. when I said grappling I was refering specifically to standing grapples, as opposed to ground fighting. I do love groundfighting, but I think that if you want to do it do BJJ, because taekwondo with groundfighting would be nowhere near as effective. Its also very far removed from what taekwondo is like you said, but I dont think that taking down an opponent while learning not to be taken down is very far removed from TKD. But I think the biggest benifit would be to make people face the fact that fighting is up close and personal, and that front kicking to keep distance and stay in kicking range isnt the only way to fight.
    UK-Student likes this.
  4. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    Bal Golgi- Foot tackling TKD

    UK-Student likes this.
  5. Mike PIckle

    Mike PIckle New Member

    My son and I have been in the stand up martial arts quite a while and have been instructing for 10 years now. We have been blessed to be trained in traditional TKD from some who studied under the first generation of Korean masters to come to the US. I have enjoyed all four aspects of the training--forms, sparring, self-defense, and board breaking. My particular favorite is self-defense because it applies all that one learns in the other aspects of training.

    A little over three years ago we began training in Judo (Yudo). It has expanded our understanding, appreciation for, and application of TKD. In particular, as it regards self-defense, our self-defense knowledge and techniques have not simply increased by adding new techniques, but our knowledge and techniques have literally multiplied. I agree with UK student that a haphazard, half-hearted effort at including grappling or ground fighting and throws in TKD is foolish. However, adding a full fledged grappling art to your training will likely do what my son and I have experienced.

    Additionally, when you add another art to your first or base art, you join an elite group that few who attain the BB rank ever do. I encourage you to seek Judo training to slowly combine with your TKD.
    UK-Student likes this.
  6. Master Dan

    Master Dan New Member

    First Grappling/PP/Offensive as opposed to defensive goint to ground depends on the Master or how close you are to an original pioneer that came here to the US or your country we are all the sum total of the person who has taught us. For my part all my black belts after first Dan have to begin learning anatomy as it relates to the Meridians and the cycle of destruction also restoration/ energetic/ diurinal and cross diurinal strikes and grappling/manipulation/striking. Tonight we will shut down after warm ups and Chi Gong and start video instruction related to the Kata's explained by Master Ian Abernathy and let them decide for themselves if they see similarities in the Kata's but better still take from that the BonKi applications and begin the rest of the year to take that from our forms to the matt. The argument of who invented what has no worth or merritt your health well being and self defense take priority over everything. Tow the party line when its necessary to pass grade or no offend those with less open minds but if you are not geting everything you need and are mature enough to handle get someone else.
    UK-Student likes this.
  7. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    Great post! I find it interesting that when grappling is taught, its part of the self defence syllabus, not fighting. If we acknowledge that standing grappling has value in a self denfense situation, and that they are found in the encyclopedia, then the only reason that they are not done seems to me that its becasue they fell out of favor due to being illegal in comps
    UK-Student likes this.
  8. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    I dont think they fell out of favour i just think they got lost and missed out and eventualy they will be forgotten and it will be as if TKD never had grappling or throws etc.....
  9. UK-Student

    UK-Student Active Member

    ^ .....or revisionist practitioners will bring them back. It's entirely our choice.
    John McNally likes this.
  10. Master Dan

    Master Dan New Member

    It not a question of falling out of favour you cannot teach what you do not know? How many masters die over a 60 year period that is at least the period that KMA was outlawed during ocupation what was allowed was a watered down form of MA /Open Hand or Empty hand but primarily for school children. Just as in many forms what is there are mapping movements to remind us of how we want to atack offensivley to PP areas but since that knowledge is meant for advanced and deciples not to the observing public myth and ledgend is added to tell a story but after time we are left with only the myth. I subscribed to theory that regardless of style they owe thier origins to TCM 8,000 to 10,00 years ago
  11. Master Dan

    Master Dan New Member

    I want to add one last thing calling revisonist about anybody who would dare to say that TKD could be more than sport or what is in the KKW text book or DartFish so what? Hapkido I am fortunate to know the greatest Supreme Grand Master of traditonal Hapkido who in relation considered him self to be the brother of my dear departed master as I look a the 3,000 plus techinques have practiced many still that and all grapling or manipucation is so close to Kyushio Jitsu and traditional TCM people and my students need to learn the deeper advantages of Chi Gong and the Meridians Anatomy and all the effects related to cycle of destruction and restoration!!!

    I was horified as all the fads come and go we had a bunch of correction officer's gettin our matts out with out permission and such doing MMA and one night I watched them many over 40 going Oh do that we saw that on TV manipulating dangerous areas of the Neck and other spots. I asked who is the master instructor and some guy working at the hotel desk said he had 6 month experience? I mentioned that that people over 40 should not be manipulating PP Points and especially Arterial areas of the neck more that 15 minutes in 2 weeks Plaque can be release and a stroke can happen as much as up to 7 years later? there are people that follow like groupies wanting to be knocke out at soft touch seminars that now have permanent organ and brain damage DUH???
    John McNally likes this.

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