team pattern

Discussion in 'The Video Room' started by Finlay, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Depends who you ask.
  2. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    Anybody disputing that would be wrong, since General Choi stated that no hip twist was to be used in Sine Wave. My instructor knew General Choi personally and is quite adamant on this point.
  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Depends when he knew Choi. There are videos in existence of Choi that contradict each other regarding the information he gives on this.
  4. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    I have seen all available footage of Choi on Youtube consistently saying "no hip twist". Sinewave was a replacement for it. As my instructor said recently: "We stopped hip twists in the 80s" when he corrected a Shotokan guy.
  5. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Extend your research outside your own armchair. Maybe you'll find that what you thought was correct turns out to be disputable.
  6. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    Show the video of Choi contradicting himself.

    He states repateadly here: Never twist your body. :6:26

  7. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    Indeed the form itself is difficult to do alone. Proper (rotating) sidekick and even more with its spinning back variant takes significant amount of time and effort to master. Some of the hand movements will also look weird if you don't understand what it really does, the same as some higher WTF patterns.
  8. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Nope. Do your own work.
  9. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    I didn't make the claim. You did. If any ITF instructor told you that we should twist our hips when performing SineWave he/she is wrong.
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    I don't care whether you agree with me or not. You are arguing against fact. I don't need to provide you with evidence, because the evidence is in the public domain. Look for it and you'll find it.

    It is not my job to educate numpties.
  11. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    Finlay, being that you are a fellow ITF guy, don't you agree this guy is the best at patterns (on Youtube anyway)? Suska has good static flexibility, but his jumps are not very good.

    This guy below is more well rounded. His performance of Juche was a bit off so I will link his Eui am performance instead: )

    Last edited: Dec 27, 2016
  12. Finlay

    Finlay Active Member


    The fella has a good solid performance. I have a few issues with the cadence of his movements. Quite isolated at the beginning and then had a feeling they were a little rushed.

    However. Good power and precision which is really the main thing I look for
  13. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    Yes, I am quite impressed by this fellow, 1997 World Champion Joel Denis.
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Waist twist ;)

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
  15. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    That's why it was better than usual. It's quite common that waist twist is overlooked if Sinewave is pronounced enough. There is an interesting chapter in A Killing Art in which Alex Gillis recounts a seminar with General Choi, where it's apparent that Choi is quite disatisfied with what has become of the techniques and blames poor instructors. I am frankly not surprised that there is a lack of consistency in ITF.
  16. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    The turning kick (dollyo chagi) is not performed by the book either, but that doesn't stop it from being the norm. You would have to go back a long time to see a turning kick with proper hip and pivot twist in a Chang Hon form.

    See here:

  17. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Less than optimal. I don't like the style, the sine wave, the breathing. Although some of his basics are relatively strong, the overall effect is weakened by the cadence as Finlay observed.

    Also some of the techniques just don't feel complete, and some of them way overexaggerated.

    There's a lack of consistency there that just doesn't present that well compared to other versions I have seen (speaking purely from an overall impression perspective).

    I wouldn't score it high, but that's based on my own personal metrics, obviously.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Choi himself was inconsistent in his views sometimes.

    I'm not really a fan of Gillis' work. Too sensationalised / dramatised for my liking. I prefer to stick to the facts.

    It's not just Choi, and it's not just ITF/Chang Hon either. TKD is like a big old game of 'telephone' (that's chinese whispers for those of a less politically correct generation). Sometimes, in this Internet age, I wonder how people can wander so far from the intended path.
  19. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    No argument from here, I completely reject Sine Wave. Chang Hon TKD with non Sine Wave is unfortunately only to be found in traditional TaeKwonDo schools. Not only are they few and far between but there is a risk of no contact sparring. We have a foreigner with a red belt in traditional TKD who had to start over as a White belt (quite harsh if you ask me having trained with him up close), and his school had no contact sparring.
  20. Pleonasm

    Pleonasm Active Member

    We can only evaluate his performance on the merits of Sine Wave, and since neither you nor I can claim expertise on that subject matter, all that remains is his level of athleticism which I deem to be world class.
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2017

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