The No Bullshit Fighting Member

Discussion in 'The Dojang' started by NoBullShitFighting, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Sometimes it can an art can die because it has lost its origional teachings, its not always evolution it can be rediscovery.

    As i have also said no martial art can claim to be the best as art suit different people in different ways.

    You can also have fight happen where a black belt in Karate has been a first degree for 10 years and a black belt in another art that has been at rank a year. there are good and bad practitioners in every art, this we accept and have no choice but to accept.

    I think sometimes we make the same point but in a different way.

    All martial arts reach a pinnacle of simmularities.

    A punch is a punch, a knife hand is a knife hand, an elbow is an elbow, but delivery is very different.
  2. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    To Blue_Knight and YOUR exhausting, line by line, reply in you which you CLAIM that I am the one to say nothing while at the same time CLAIMING that you yourself have still said something, to that I say this "YOU HAVEN'T". Your initial post and the reply's you've made in defense of it haven't proven through example, shared theory or demonstration any of the CLAIMS you make about what you call "REAL TAEKWONDO". I'm tired of people LIKE YOU propagating the notion that out there amongst the McDojo's and Sham Martial Arts schools there lies this "killing art" style (your real TKD) that can't be talked about due to its deadly nature and "secret" techniques. By the way there is NO such as thing as SECRET techniques anymore; every Martial Arts technique on the planet has been cataloged and is easily found with a simple google/youtube search or amazon purchase. You can find out how to snap someone's neck online for christ's sake, look up the PDFs of "Kill or Be Killed/ Get Tough".

    "How come I don't ever see people use TKD in MMA then?" (most ask), "Well Timmy because the ever present and RESTRICTIVE rules prevent its practitioners from competing because, as we all know, the style only works in a NO RULES setting. When every kick is to the nuts, every finger tip thrust to the eyes and every knife hand to the throat we'd all end up in jail if we stepped into the cage with those meathead MMA guys." It's BULLSHIT, man!!! If you can't even train someone to BEAT someone else up in a KICKBOXING tournament (let alone MMA) because the techniques are only backed by STATIC training methods because they're too "deadly" to be practiced any other way and NO REAL experience in any DYNAMIC setting is gained because of this (other than what's found in TKD's own "restrictive" sparring venue) how can you then make the claim that those same training methods could EFFECTIVELY be used to teach someone to KILL.

    YOUR attempt to use other people's ignorance as justification for YOUR TKD's "secret" real world success is ludicrous and detrimental to furthering anyone who reads this' growth. THIS is what your post said; "I Blue Knight practice real TKD. I can't tell you about it because it might help other people to sell my "truth" as their own. I can't demonstrate what I know, nor can I train others to demonstrate that my TKD is useful in any CONTACT driven format of sparring, especially MMA, due to the deadly nature of all the techniques that I teach. Basically I can't tell you, I can't show you, I can only teach you." Martial art don't work like this; seeing, after all, is believing.

    *The Differences you asked for: kukkiwon uses 45 degree upward flick kick w/instep as roundhouse kick-no power, all speed; chang hon uses instep AND ball of foot in its version w/ full hip rotation. Chang hon uses Sine Wave-equals waste; kukkiwon uses grounded more traditional karate stances-not as traditional in how they move through them. Both adhere to "block here, punch there" in pattern work. Kukkiwon follows WTF rules for sparring- no head punches (making hand strikes rare). Chang hon usually follows ITF sparring-punches allowed to head but speed is what matters (slap technique with no power).

    Neither allow close range (standing) grappling nor do they SCORE opponent down due to loss of balance/throw which has resulted in OVER tendency of practitioners to throw kicks at inappropriate times and anlges due to disregard for associated off balance; usually results in attacker crashing to the mat. Both score jump kicks and high kicks disproportionately to other more realistically lower kicks which is also a leading cause of this "crashing" effect.

    This "restricted" sparring being the only DYNAMIC encounter most TKD students have, it becomes there fall back subconsciously resulting in what they actually believe is correct fighting. Read that as how they would respond in an actual fight/self defense scenario. As a side- during TKD's around the world challenge matches (no actual record of these) why wasn't anyone KILLED by the PIONEERS of TKD who where using this "too deadly" art?
  3. NoBullShitFighting

    NoBullShitFighting Active Member

    Cough cough PAUL DOUMBIA cough cough

    Cough cough this is what taekwondo should look more like cough

    On a serious note. You want to know what people from the IOC told me when we discussed adding Jiu-Jitsu? It needed to be more viewer friendly. They wanted us to make the art less effective and more viewer friendly with rules and regulations. If you don't believe this is what happende to WTF TKD you are being very naive. They sold you out to enter the olympics. That is what really happened and that is why ITF TKD people often loathe WTF TKD.
    John McNally likes this.
  4. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    I agree ^^ much better, and importantly, still looks like TKD. The charicter is not lost
  5. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Good video and shows how TKD actualy is....... the point i make has just been shown..... all of the take downs and grappling designs are missed out of many schools TKD practice.....
  6. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    I do think that restricted training has a use though. To take the example of the rifle and pistol, just for pure training it might be benificial to just use the rifle (i.e. kick). For example, there is a guy at my club with amazing kicks. I regulary get my ass kicked by him. If the rule set were less restrictive then I would beat him, im stronger than him and i have more grappling experience and punching experience. I could either take him down and sub him, or use hooks from close in.

    The fact I cant do this means I have to work on my kicks, and although this is frustrating and painful for me, it helps me develop in the long run. In a holistic art such as taekwondo there should be bits where the techniques are isolated for sparring. when Iboxed we were sometimes told to spar one handed, or with just straights. This helps develop that particular thing. BUT just using the jab would leave you incomplete, and never having to worry about a right hand coming would mean you never learnt to defend it. As well as restricted training you need open training so that you can work out how to put the individual pieces together, see where the shortfalls of each are (for example, ducking might work in boxing, but its a great way to get a kick to the side of the head in TKD), and learn how to defend against an unrestricted attacker.
  7. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    This is my final reply to "Nightwing," and perhaps my final post here. For those who don't want to get bogged down in reading a lengthy reply to Nightwing's accusations, please feel free to skip this. There is not much substance here, because once again, Nightwing has not raised any specific pertinent points on topic that I can debate. It is just more rhetoric trying to attack me. Change your attitude and approach, Nightwing, or I am done wasting time with you.

    Nightwing - If you don't like my "line by line" replies, then don't read them. Better yet, don't rant for several paragraphs making false, generalized statements bashing an art that you clearly do not fully understand, yet present yourself as an expert. Your problem is that your cup is full. You don't seek answers, even if someone could or would offer them. You just insult and rant about what you believe is reality because you read it somewhere, or saw it on youtube. You are not even trying to see if I have more to offer or answer your questions. You just want to attack, and insult without presenting any facts for me to even dispute. You spend more time attacking me and my method of commenting than actually debating the art on its merits.

    I have said plenty - - you just don't seem to be interested in finding the truth in what I have said, or having a civil, polite, respectful and productive conversation. If you would calm down a bit, and actually debate the subject one point at a time, we might get somewhere. If you continue as you do, I won't waste my time with you, and you can remain as uninformed and uneducated as when you first came here.

    Likewise! I have seen plenty like you on the internet, and mostly on those BS websites where they actually think they know what they are talking about. I'm only being harsh here with you because you have come on so strong, and attack with such crude, rude behavior that I have no intention of sharing anything of value with you. No more than if a person like you walked into my dojang and demanded that I prove what I teach is effective. It's not that I couldn't - - I wouldn't. I would show them the door, and suggest they improve their attitude or any knowledgeable Master won't teach them anything. If you think that is evidence that people like me CAN'T back up what we say - - keep thinking that. But if push comes to shove in the real world, the person who shoves won't know what hit them. That's reality.

    You are very naive. It seems that at your apparent young age, and profile that says 2nd Dan with no affiliation, you have gained all the knowledge there is out there, and are confident that nothing exists that you do not know. The "secret" is not something mystical. It is the advanced skills, and intimate understanding of applications that we who have been training and teaching for three or four decades do not write down in books, or put out in videos for every clown to learn and think they are good enough to kick butt in the street. Yes, we do know things that we don't show or teach everyone. What seems to irk you, is that you don't like to think that anyone could know something that you - in your infinite wisdom and vast experience - could not have already learned. Keep believing that.

    It's almost too sad to actually laugh at your comment. Keep learning from books and youtube, and I'm sure you will be a Master some day. No, Nightwing.... everything that can be taught is not plainly written, cataloged and presented on youtube.

    This is one reason why I won't continue to have discussions with you after this. You don't seek answers. You think you have them all, and you have no respect for anyone who just MIGHT be able to teach you something. I will gladly show you mutual respect and courtesy, and I do NOT demand that you do the same. But if you choose not to, and speak to me as though know so much that you are going to call what I say "BS" instead of politely asking for clarification, or presenting a courteous rebuttal, then I have no intention of talking further with you.

    Here is where you make an assumption that is not based in fact. I CAN train someone to beat others in KIKCBOXING matches, and by using only Taekwondo skills - so to assume that I "can't" is your mistake. I have no interest in training people for that arena, and quite frankly - - you still don't get the point of separating sports from reality. Although I am sure you will claim you do, and have some unfounded argument to misquote something I have said, it is not worth chasing down all the tangents you have gone off on, when you don't stick to one point, and follow it through to a rational conclusion - even if we disagree. I have already asked that the posts remain short as I don't have time to address all of this nonsense, and this is the last time I will attempt to get things back on track with you.

    Just THINK about what you are saying... or asking.... or answering your own question with your own limited experience. Is Taekwondo "EFFECTIVE?" Yes - this is a fact - it has been used by many in REAL LIFE self defense numerous times. Can Taekwondo be used to "KILL?" Yes. Any of these striking arts clearly contain multiple deadly techniques. Anyone who doesn't know this, does not know much about these systems, or has not been taught proper techniques. Are those techniques allowed in sports? No. What is so difficult to understand about that?

    No - what is ludicrous is your attempt to speak through ignorance, and try to correct someone who just might be older than you, with many, MANY more years experience in the classroom and in the real world using Taekwondo for self defense, and who has likely trained directly from more Taekwondo pioneers and Grandmasters to gain first hand knowledge than you have at this point in your life. Now, I don't typically just throw age, rank, or my training around as an answer to resolve all disputes, because in many cases, people who make such claims really do not have that much knowledge, and rank does not necessarily mean the same everywhere. But when you take a stance on a point based on ignorance (or your lack of experience because you have never seen it yourself) challenge my comments base solely on my own personal experience (logically what I am speaking from) and blatantly call it "BS" because you don't agree with it - then there is nothing more to say. PROVE something you claim to be false about what I say, and I will offer PROOF of what I say. All you have been doing is saying your personal experience is different from mine, therefore I am wrong because I claim to have "secret" knowledge which you believe can not exist. Make a point about one thing, and we can discuss that ONE THING! Am I going to explain exactly in detail here how to kill people quickly or how the deadly techniques of Taekwondo actually can work in the hands of a Master? NO!

    If you are going to paraphrase what I say as some pseudo-quote, at least you could try to be accurate.

    "Real Taekwondo" is what it is. It is "REAL" when it is not "FAKED" by those who have limited knowledge, but want to pass themselves off as experts, masters, and "super-ninja 30th Degree Grandmasters." There are many people who claim to teach Taekwondo, and have very little training or knowledge to do so, and that is not "Real Taekwondo." It is a false misrepresentation of the actual art. If you are not aware of this fact, then you are naive.

    I never said that I "CAN'T" tell you about it. I most certainly CAN, as could many others here. But why would I? You want answers, and you think I don't have them. How would you know if I have something to offer you? You show poor manners, and demand answers in a rude, discourteous attack. You won't get them.

    I never said that I "CAN'T" demonstrate that my Taekwondo is useful in Contact sparring. I certainly CAN. Come to my Dojang, show some manners, and perhaps I would. If you think for one moment that those people in MMA and other cage matches are the BEST in the world, and can easily defeat seasoned Masters and Grandmasters in the REAL WORLD of self defense, then you are sadly mistaken. The greatest Grandmasters of the highest caliber, and most deadly skills will not be found in those competitions, but don't be so naive as to believe they don't exist, or they could not defeat those young, relatively inexperienced sport athletes if it came to a life or death match. Have you ever seen a circus performer fight a lion in a cage with a whip and a chair? Now tell me how many of them have gone into the jungle, and tried the same thing with a untamed, wild lion, or a lioness protecting her cubs. The real world is different than in a cage.

    Therein lies your problem. Because you have not seen something, you are convinced it does not exist. "Martial Art don't work like this." Yes, you know all there is to know about the Martial Art, and you know how it works. You can defeat me, and everyone else here because we do not know anything that you have not already read in a book or seen on youtube. I bow to your superior internet knowledge.

    Your faulty thinking is revealed repeatedly in your only analysis of the Art through what you witness in tournaments (ITF, WTF, MMA, Cage). This has nothing to do with reality, and the sooner you learn that, the sooner you will break free of some of the stereotypes and false notions about "REAL Taekwondo" as opposed to "SPORT Taekwondo."

    What I do in an actual fight, and what my students would do, is based on how we train in class - - and has nothing to do with what you see being allowed, or not allowed in tournaments. Tournaments have their place, and can be useful to enhance training and skills, but that is not all there is to what we do. Schools that are focused only on sports, and winning medals might produce students and black belts that ARE in fact limited in ways you observe. AGAIN, that is not "REAL Taekwondo." That is a result of modified training for sports. That is not the way I train or teach. If you have been trained this way, and you enter a street fight carrying this notions of fighting according to a preferred method in a sport match, then you are in for a major surprise as to what real Masters do in real self defense.

    Many people were killed by the PIONEERS of Taekwondo - - not in some competition ring, but in the Korean War, and in Vietnam where these Taekwondo Masters' unarmed combat skills were feared by the Viet Cong. Many pioneers of Taekwondo were Black Belts of the Chung Do Kwan who helped clean up criminal element in the streets of Seoul after WWII. The trained the police and military, and the Chung Do Kwan served as Secret Service for the South Korean President.

    I see that you don't get the reality of this, and you probably never will because your cup is full, and you have convinced yourself that nothing deadly exists in Taekwondo, or why wouldn't we be able to tone it down and still win in a tournament. We can, and someone might some day just to prove it. But the reality is that YOU and others like you are not discussing what we could do in sports. YOU and others continue to make an assumption and draw a conclusion that Taekwondo is NOT effective in REAL self defense BECAUSE it is not used to win MMA matches. SERIOUSLY! You just don't get it!

    These analogies seem to go right over your head, but I'll try one last time. A soldier in combat IS DEADLY because of ALL the weapons he HAS, and is TRAINED to USE. If I toss a grenade near you with the timing that it goes off in the air within inches of your head, you are DEAD. To put my skills to the test in a GAME of MOCK COMBAT where you say I can bring my hand grenades with me, but I am not allowed to pull the pins, and after throwing multiple hand grenades without pulling the pins at the head of some boy scout who rushes in with a rope to lasso me and tie me up - don't tell me that the boy scout is more deadly than me if you say I can't use my grenade before he even gets close, I can't actually shoot him with live rounds to kill him before he throws his rope, and I can't pull out my knife to cut the rope and slash his throat because that would be against the rules of the game. BUT!!!! you say, I have the same advantage as the boys scout by using a rope if I want. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT!!!

    Play rock, paper, scissors, and let the paper cover the rock and you win! In real life, the rock smashes the scissors and tears through the paper, and bashes you in the head. I win because there are no rules, and I am more skilled and deadly accurate with rocks then you are with your paper and scissors. GAMES do not equate REALITY!

    Now, I've tried to explain my position clearly and rationality. I would go more in detail if necessary, but I do apologize to others who might have felt compelled to wade through all that wordy reply. However, this is brought on by you, Nightwing, and your lack of focus on one point that I could address one at a time. Instead, you want to generalize and bash an art you know little about, and verbally attack me with discourteous remarks.

    I'm done with you, so go on with your rebuttals and claims, but you will never learn anything of value from those who possess the knowledge you lack, because you show no respect for deserving to have it shared with you. It is not "SECRET." It is just special and important, and essential to being able to defeat those who think they know it all. Therefore, it is not always shared with the general public or even beginner Black Belts.... and to your dismay, its not on youtube.

    So long folks. If these are the kind of individuals allowed to be so rude on the forum, I've got better to things to do. My apologies to the other legitimate Masters and genuine Martial Art enthusiasts here. I respect your opinions, even when they differ from mine. It is not what a person says... it is how they say it. So I apologize if I have offended anyone here, but I don't need this kind of BS in my life.

    Blue Knight
    John McNally likes this.
  8. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    Maturity of training allows all to see true effect in all areas of Taekwon -DO those eager to learn more should practice more, search within to find an answer, sometimes students get to black belt and appear at my school and i ask them to get permission from their Instructor first out of courtesy, (not respect) the reason i say not respect is because if that student was been taught well he would already have the permission of his instructor because his instructor would know his limits and be encouraging his black belt to go to a instructor that can improve him or her.
    I have this happen and when i show the black belt something and why and how the response i sometimes get is "thats deep" no its not deep its Tae Kwon DO, this upsets me because it continues to tell me that there are so many black belts out there that have been milked for money and not taught what they should be.
    Some have reached black belt well but even some of them with great skills do not realize the black belt mind and the DO.

    The simple phrase of "the clothes do not make the person, the person makes themself" tells all students to be aware of their own learned limits.

    Black belt is a novice student that has learned the basics, so now its time to evolve.
  9. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    Blue_Knight, would you not agree that if you can kick and punch effectively then you can demonstrate those skills within a ruleset? Kickboxing matches are different to Self defense situations, and we shouldn't train for kickboxing to get better at self defense, BUT kicking and punching hard and fast is a prerequisite of being able to defend yourself, and if you have those skills you should be able to demonstrate them against a resisting opponent within a ruleset. Now, you wont do as well as someone that trains exclusively for that ruleset because your time is divided, but you should be able to demonstrate basic kicking and punching to an adequate level.
  10. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    I think the point of the above Bowlie is that many judge and comment on arts that they see in competition, agreed some schools focus on competition only, however i believe that focusing on the sport side is wrong as this limits real life effectiveness.
    If a school teaches real life effective teaching as in Tae Kwon do then eyes will be open a lot wider. sparring in the dojang is very different to a fight for life.
  11. bowlie

    bowlie Well-Known Member

    I would add to that though that many martial arts instructors dont have an adequate understanding of the issues of self defense to teach it. Some taekwondo schools teach brilliant self defense, but these are the exception, not the rule
  12. John McNally

    John McNally Active Member

    The same in all arts
  13. Blue_Knight

    Blue_Knight Active Member

    Bowlie, thank you for your polite question. Sometimes, it might be more difficult for me to explain in words, especially internet posts, rather than to talk in person or demonstrate to a student. Yes, if you are good at striking in general (punching/kicking) you should be able to show those skills in a contest with rules. This is done frequently with success, but far too often with complications and limitations. The particular rules are often the problem to creating a fair and balanced result - - especially when comparing two different approaches to a skill, and even with different end results being sought (IE: Self defense through injury and/or death vs. winning a game by submission and/or points with referee enforcing rules).

    It is almost like taking the world's best volleyball player, who is awesome on land at jumping and spiking, then put him/her in a contest where the game ranges between a hard-floor court, and a swimming pool against those who are good at water polo where there are similarities in playing with a round ball, but the objectives are different. The volleyball player might prefer to climb back out of the pool, and compete on land, but the water polo guys might grab him and pull him back in. What would I do in that position? Maybe poke them in the eyes, grab and squeeze their testicles, collapse the trachea, hold their head under water and drown them and then climb out of the water? Oh, wait.... those things are not allowed in the game, so I have no choice but to remain in the realm of the water where their game rules and skills prevail.

    Matching a striking art against a grappling art is a contradiction in logic if the striker is limited in the number of techniques they would ordinarily use to win a real street fight (no bare fist without boxing gloves, knife-hand strikes, ridge-hand, spear-hand, arc-hand, finger and thumb gouges), and limited targets to strike (no eyes, throat, groin), and the degree of force permitted (not allowed to gouge out eyes, rip off ears, crush testicles, collapse trachea, break neck, ribs, elbow or knee joints, etc., etc.)

    A fighter who is trained for the primary use of kicks, and hand strikes SHOULD also become competent at pressure points, joint locks, sweeps, reaps, throws, take-downs, and ground-fighting grappling skills - - mostly to avoid being trapped or controlled, and being skilled (HIGHLY skilled) at how to escape from controls, even if that means breaking bones and attacking deadly targets at close range. That is how Korean Taekwondo was originally designed to be. It is true that many of today's modern Taekwondo practitioner (particularly those focused on TKD sports, and those at poorly run dojang) do not train adequately at the "grappling defense" portion. However, I believe it is a huge mistake to try and mix-train to become as good at grappling as a wrestler or jujutsu/jujitsu player.

    From my own experience, after several years of wrestling in my youth, and being on my school's wrestling team, I joined a judo dojo at the age of 15. As a white belt, I could beat all of the adult Black Belts on the mat every time. The only thing they had as an advantage was using the gi lapels for choke holds. I know how to wrestle. My father was a Professional Wrestler, and I did some Pro-Wrestling with him and Bobo Brazil. However, from my own experience, real-life self defense is too unpredictable, and dangerous to wrestle one-on-one, and be close to an opponent who might be armed, have one or more partners, or might surprise you with a quick eye-gouge or other move that leaves you blind for life, or dead. I have dedicated my Martial Art career to being able to end a fight quickly, and avoid any grappling control that someone could use.

    However, the moves, skills and tactics that I would use in a real fight to keep a grappler from being successful are not permitted in any way shape or form in tournaments. That includes Taekwondo matches, Boxing bouts, Professional Wrestling, MMA, or any other such game. Yes, I can tone the techniques of Taekwondo down, and POSSIBLY prevail in any match based on controlled and limited use of my kicks and hand strikes. But, when a good grappler rushes in - throwing caution to the wind just to get that take-down, I have a split second opportunity to either seriously maim them, or kill them. Since neither is an option in the game - I might end up on the ground. Now, I am not totally vulnerable there, but he might be better at grappling, so my preference would be to seriously injure him so that I can make him let go, and return to my feet where I will once again be in control and at an advantage.

    Still, these techniques to cause him to release that I would use in real life, are not permitted in the ring. So, what we have is a game that favors the less violent, and less lethal grappling, and puts greater restrictions on the striker. It doesn't mean we CAN'T win in that situation. It just means that IF we don't, it is not a fair comparison of one art vs. another, because you don't actually see the full range of Taekwondo in the ring. If absolutely NO techniques were barred, these MMA fights would go differently, but then we would have a lot of people being rushed to the hospital, and even some being killed in the ring. The GAME has limitations. Real life has none. There's the difference. It would be ludicrous to allow the full power of any Martial Art in a sport, therefore it is unreasonable to analyze a sport match, and conclude that one art is better than another, or one is useless or ineffective in real self defense based on the outcome of a game.

    This might not answer it completely or resolve all debate by others, but I hope it helps to explain my point of view better.

    Thank you,
    Blue Knight

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