TKD's actual Sparring Techniques?

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by Nightwing, Feb 7, 2013.

  1. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    1)What is TKD's fighting stance?
    2)What are TKD's blocking techniques?
    3)How are TKD's punching techniques performed WHILE sparring?
     
  2. Leighton

    Leighton Member

    These questions posed are very specific and I think the questions cannot be answered in a specific manner. Unlike karate tournaments that i have seen, TKD techniques do not have to executed in very specific start /finnish points. As long as the techniques used have purpose and power they do not have to end in any particular way.

    To try and answer some of the above, a beginner will only know a few blocks so therefore will only be able to block using those, where as an experienced person will know alot more and have more blocking techniques at thier disposal. Also I cannot say there is 'one' fighting stance that is used. The same can said for punching as well. As I have said a more experienced person will have more techniques available to them than a beginner.

    To say things like 'if this kick is done you must do this block' is wrong. The person sparring should use thier own judgement and use what deems appropriate at the time, if that means using foot work to get in and out of range rather than standing and blocking then so be it.


    There seems to be at the moment on this forum a few discussions about how effective TKD is at sparring. My opinion is learn the techniques and then adapt them accordingly. Just because when we do line work there is a very specific way of performing techniques it does not mean they have to be performed this way in a sparring competition. If this is the case are we saying that if a person only traings for sparring in a ring that the techniques used will not work in a self defence situation????

    Sorry about the long answer
     
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  3. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    To your first point about the techniques not being done in "a specific manner," I don't really know what your trying to say here. Your answer (although appreciated) is highly vague and I think tries too hard to be a "catch all" type of response. Surely TKD has some form of fighting posture that you start and return to after the completion of techniques; you wouldn't just stand there with your hands at your sides and your feet together and expect to respond to being attacked? Every martial art has a fighting stance so my question is what is TKD's?

    To your second that point that a beginner will only know a small number of blocks and that number will vary based on experience, I agree. However, what are those beginner blocks, where do they come from (forms or elsewhere), and how are they performed? I never asked "if someone does this kick, what block do you do for it?" nor do I see defense as a "this move is matched with this move" affair. All I want to know is what do you think consists of TKD's defensive techniques for sparring?

    As for the last point, you tied your answer about TKD's punching techniques into your answer about "no one fighting stance" but, again, surely there has to be some base line standard for punching techniques and my question stands "how do you perform TKD's punching techniques?

    *I understand that based on experience people will have different levels of skill and technique but there has to be some standard method taught to all people. If I came to you with NO knowledge of fighting and said that I was going to take place in a sparring competition in 3 months (only have time to teach me TKD's basic sparring techniques) what techniques would you teach me?
     
  4. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    To answer my own questions I did a video analysis of this:


    Fighting Stance
    1-Both hands at sides or held up a little higher than shoulder height (semi-boxing guard), without any special emphasis on tucking the chin.
    2) Stance is either a back stance or sitting stance with the upper body either half facing or completely side facing the opponent.

    Defensive (blocking) and Punching Techniques-
    First fight-both competitors bounced up and down on their toes (to increase mobility?) and chiefly defended themselves by dodging techniques by sliding/running out of range. Both used their front hand to brush aside or slap down the techniques of the other. Only real attempt to block (stop technique in place with some sort of barrier) was made at 0:56 when competitor dropped both his hands down; resulted in competitor being knocked out (show replay at 1:04). No punches used.

    Second fight- Both competitors use movement as their primary means of defense, occasionally using their front hand to brush/slap techniques away from them (at times using both hands). At 2:36 one competitor performs front hand "jab" with his arm (no bodyweight or hip rotation) while simultaneously being turn kicked. Follows up with kick grab and wide left hook, also thrown with arm (no weight transfer or hip rotation) while "running" opponent down. At 3:08 after dodging backwards to avoid spinning turn kick (hook kick), competitor "jumps" forward while performing right punch (weight transferred upwards and not into technique, no hip rotation). After various kick and dodging exchanges at 4:08 competitor lunges/jumps forward at opponent while throwing left "jab" (all arm). End of round one and my analysis; the rest of the fight is more of the same in terms of offense and defense.

    Summary:
    -FIGHTING STANCE: Side or half facing posture in a back or sitting stance with competitor's arm at sides (may raise them to comfort level)
    -DEFENSE: Majority of defense will be based on movement; defined as "whatever is necessary to avoid point scoring technique" (dodging/running). Front hand may be used to brush/slap aside opponent's techniques; chief objective to get them away from competitors body. Must not use both arms; could result in knockout.
    -PUNCHING TECHNIQUES: Any technique with a closed fist whereby the arm extends in any fashion in order to strike/touch the opponent. Chief concern is speed, which is realized by "arm-only" driven nature of attack.
     
  5. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    Punching Techniques more prominent in this video (my summation is still the same)-

     
  6. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    Speaking from a self defence viewpoint
    1) Back stance.
    2) The most common are: low section block, low section inner forearm block, outer forearm block, inner forearm block, outer block , inward palm block, raising (high section) block, double outer forearm block, guarding block and low section and high section x-blocks.
    3) Punching techniques are always performed from the guarding position, except for the upset punch or uppercut which still comes from near the hip, with the other hand either blocking or guarding the head.
     
  7. Leighton

    Leighton Member

    From the videos you have uploaded you will see the fighters having a very relaxed guard. As a beginner I wouldn't recommend doing this but the guys sparring in the videos are of a standard where they have the confidence to do so. What I meant by a 'specific manner' is if you were to watch a Karate match (no particular style only the ones I have witnessed), they have to bring the hand back to the hip after punching and there should be other key elements involved before the point is scored. A fighting stance i would teach a beginner is a relaxed walking stance.

    Defensive techniques I would teach a beginner would be more foot movement rather than stand there and take a perfect block. Saying that, low block, back forearm outward block.

    The punching techniques would probably come from a relaxed guarding block and then using jabs and crosses like a boxer.

    IF you were to come to me as an absolute beginner with NO knowledge of fighting I would question why you have entered into a competition in 3 months? After that I would teach you what I have said above, basic punches, basic blocks and probably front kick, side kick and turning kick. I would work on only these techniques and drill them in different combinations. From what I have said you could say I would just teach you the basics of kick boxing and not TKD. In my eyes to learn TKD you have to learn all the different parts of the art and not ust the sparring. I know some Dojangs prefer to focus on the sparring but I like to teach the whole package.

    I hope this answers my last post a bit better.
     
  8. Ted Martin

    Ted Martin Member

    1) A stance comfortable that always keeps you in motion (light on your feet). It is very hard to classify an exact stance (wide walking, an upright sitting stance or what I classify as fighting stance)
    2) Movement is your best block, for a kick that never lands is never remembered. If you must block it should be used to deflect a strike rather than stop one (I have seen broken arms from excessive blocking). I suggest getting out of the way.
    3) The WTF rules speak of punches that are straight and direct (lunge, jab and superman punches) meaning hook and uppercut punches are not permitted in tournament play.
    I would really like to see some people post there own videos and speak of personal experience in this thread rather than randomly sourced videos from the Internet.
    Guess I should be the first. I'm in full blue! (hope this works!!) There is a legal WTF punch at 1:05


    Feel free to offer constructive criticism. I have broad shoulders...
     
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  9. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    I hope Ted Martin doesn't think that I was criticizing the videos I analyzed earlier in this thread. The whole purpose of the questions that I posted originally was to form a base line understanding for myself (and anyone else who cares to read this) of what is meant by people on this forum when they say TKD sparring and refer to its techniques. Most of the discussions I have on here or read on here involve people saying things like "i don't perform blocks from the patterns" or "the technique is different in sparring" but generally never go into detail as to how its different. The only reason I even did that video analysis in the first place was because nobody had thus far provided any answers to my questions so I went looking for them myself (Leighton's response wasn't concrete enough in his description of technique).
     
  10. Ted Martin

    Ted Martin Member

    No I was not suggesting that your analysis was overly critical and good for you for searching out your own answers. It actually was less about your own answer and more about others. A lot of people giving opinion but very few show you what they mean. I would like to see more people answering questions with more personal responsibility to what they are saying. If you say you commonly spar in cat stance and successful defend yourself with push block in tournament level play I would like to see it. It may offer me a new direction or opinion that could enhance my abilities. I don’t want to watch videos of past Olympians (I can youtube that stuff anytime) but rather personal videos from real masters, teachers, trainers and students shows some true conviction to the answer.

    PS. I don’t use blocks from patterns often in sparring either and you can call me Ted :)
     
  11. Leighton

    Leighton Member

    I was looking for videos of myself sparring and realised I dont have any o_O

    I suppose for me trying to explain how I spar is difficult. An other why I could try and explain it is, the blocks, punches and stances are taken from patterns, they are just a relaxed or adapted version of them. For example IF I were to have to defend my self in a street situation I would not end up doing perfect execution of stances, blocks etc, just an adapted why to use them.

    This again sounds like a very vague answer. The only way I can say to answer the thread is to go and try it out. Please forgive my ignorance if I'm wrong but it sounds like you do not have any training in the art? (This quetion is directed at Nightwing)
     
  12. Ted Martin

    Ted Martin Member

    In Leighton defense, he answered the question in a simplistic way that was easy to understand if you where a beginner who knew the basics but had yet sparred.
     
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  13. Nightwing

    Nightwing Member

    I was referring to Leighton's first response, his second which was in response to what I said about his first was fine. Leighton I do train in TKD and have been for the better part of a decade. I asked these questions because, like I said I wanted to establish a base line for what people meant by "TKD's sparring/fighting techniques," to see if it was in line with what I thought they meant (define the terms of the argument/discussion). I use block as an umbrella term to describe defensive actions-cover, parry,deflection,etc. You've mentioned the blocking techniques you use after you "adapt" them; what I want to know is how you adapt them and why?
     
  14. Leighton

    Leighton Member

    Nightwing, again please accept an apology for presuming you have no prior experience it was just the way you were asking the questions and the responses given.
    From your last post it sounds like we both use defensive techniques in the same way. If was to discuss a particular technique, a low block would be adapted to parry/deflect a front or side to my mid section. This would also be in conjunction with moving out of the way. I would adapt the techniques used for sparring as for me this is the sport side of it and there should be no intent on over the top contact. I would not use this adaptation for a real self defence situation. The footwork probably by running away!
     
  15. Leighton

    Leighton Member

    Ignore, computer problem
     
  16. NoBullShitFighting

    NoBullShitFighting Active Member

    Here is my opinion.

    1) Taekwondo shifts their stances all the time in order to set up different tactics. The preferable stance is according to the situation. The stance might be shoulder distance between feet in order to gather kinetic chain energy from the ground when punching. But during a block one might skip the legs while moving backwards to gain momentum to set up a quick counter using the spinning hook kick. One might utilize the L stance in order to set up a piercing side kick with the front foot by moving the rear foot to right behind the front foot and exploding forward into the motion. A neutral stance is often recommended in the start, distributing the weight and balance for maximum versatility, at my club this was called Kart. It would be the equivalent of ap-seogi distance in poomsae.

    2) In a fight involving punching to the face and kicking the preferable and simplest way to block is rotating the guard by moving the hands and/or torso. In a kicking situation many fighters utilize timing to execute their kick in a way that simultaneously blocks the opponents kick. The poomsae equivalent of this would be bending stance to piercing kick, turning yeop chagi, oeasantuel yeopchagi, keumgang maki to yeop chagi. While the blocking techniques makes you familiar with the hand positioning for maximum safety when moving your guard. But in a fight timing is important, so one preferably blocks the attacks with economy of movement.

    3) In OL-taekwondo the punch really needs to strike through the opponent to score. I prefer a straight punch with the knuckles aligned vertically as this gives me more force from the hips and I actually stand a chance at scoring a point by punching. Also the kinetic energy is very important, if the punch doesn't push him away the opponent will clinch you and try to jump back to kick you again, usually to the face because of your leaning forward from being in the clinch. Usually you can punch him rapidly in the vest if you both kick at the same time and crash into each other, giving you the needed proximity. Another way is to jump to the side and the punch to the vest as you landing in the beginning of a combo that is set up by the avoiding sidestepping, but this usually only works on very hesitant figheters.

    In ITF punching needs reach. Jabs and double jumping punches are common in fights. Since you can't knock the opponent out or even TKO, jabs are prefered. However, there will probably be some furious punch outs at close range, but I usually just see straight punches to the face and upper body. The rules are however almost identical to semi-contact kickboxing.
     

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