Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by dojo, Apr 21, 2012.
I still find Chil Jang the most difficult of the Taegeuk series. Hard to get the details right.
hey whats the difference between taegeuk and poomsae ? or are they the same with different names ?
Strictly speaking the black belt forms are Poomsae, the Taegeuk forms are not. The Taegeuk series teaches basic movement and philosophical principles of Taegeuk Do, while the Poomsae contain more advanced combinations and variants of motions, and are somewhat more applicable. The poomsae teach some very specific physical and philosophical points (beyond those of Taegeuk Do) at each dan grade if they are trained in the right way.
Typically Taegeuk forms are referred to as for example 'Taegeuk Yuk Jang', while poomsae are referred to as 'Koryo Poomsae'.
Kwang-Gae or Hwa-Rang
my favourite pattern, pretty much anything ITF due to the strong nature of the patterns, we do both ITF and WTF, WTF just feels weak and some of them are downright confusing and do provide a true WTF thought, as in WTF... how is this supposed to work...why did I just do that to stop that...
If they feel weak, you're not doing them correctly. If you don't understand the movements and the reasons for them, then that's not a problem with the forms.
I am just happy that after 5 years I finally learned Sipjin.
One of my favourite patterns. Bawi milgi and mongae chigi had me asking a lot of questions!
At third dan? Wow.
momtong-makki is like rubbing your stomach and patting your head at the same time.
Poomsae are kind of my specialism, I learn them way ahead of time and polish them up for competition and gradings. I love that the forms after Pyongwon have so many challenging motions coordination wise, so I can't help myself!
Have you tried out Chonkwon Poomsae? Now that is a difficult one to get right
While studying at Chosun University all Taekwondo students had to learn all the Kukkiwon Poomsae. I was a 1st Dan at the time, but I learned all the Poomsae up to Hansoo (We did Illyo too but not as indepth as all the ones up to Hansoo). I still practise all of them Sipjin is one of my favorite forms of all the Kukkiwon forms (I think I replied before on this thread).
Chonkwon is great, working on that one at the moment along with polishing Taegeuk Chil Jang. Somehow doing Chil Jang to a level I am really satisfied with remains elusive due to the Beom Seogi accompanying movements. Chil Jang contains some movements that I view as fundamental to Chonkwon. Those two forms are really challenging me at present.
Although I have looked at and practiced them, I am saving Hansu and Ilyeo for when I feel bored with the forms I already regularly practice. Which will not be for a long time. It's sort of like reading a great book and not wanting to reach the end. I also think it is important to take the lessons out of each form for each dan grade (which I know you do, Oerjan) - there are some specifics there for example Keumgang places emphasis on low balance, stability and power, while Taebaek is more about fluid and crisp combinations, and strong mental focus.
I really want to do the KKW Instructors Course to get a detailed view of Poomsae, but it will have to wait until after my 4th dan.
I noticed a lot of people are commenting forms that are color belt patterns or really "weak" black belt patterns like Keumgang and Poeun. Some of the stronger and more complex patterns (especially better for competition) are Cheuche, Gae bek, Samil, and Moon moo. These are some of the patterns that look more appealing to a judge at a tournament.
I am not sure I'd call Keumgang weak, it's anything but!
Most WTF patterns are "weaker" then the ITF patterns just based of of complexity. I officiate in tournaments and I know that during side by side patterns I find my self watching the more complex pattern
That depends on your definition of weak and your definition of complexity. Performing Keumgang correctly is technically very demanding, arguably just as demanding as any of the Chang Hon forms, but in a very different way.
They're Kukkiwon forms, rather than WTF forms, by the way. The WTF just regulates competition.
If you want to call them Kukkiwon forms then fine, but I learn both. and I can tell you that if you go to competitions a keumgang will lose to a gaebek every time, unless the keungang is outstanding. my definition of weak is based on how much power you can put into each movement. In ITF patterns there is a lot more rotation of the shoulders and the torso. While in a kukkiwon pattern they are more keep your body straight and don' twist as much. By complexity I mean the difficulties of the moves. In Chuche you have 180 slow hook kicks, jumping split kicks, balance checks, and jumping back kicks. Im not saying Kukkiwon patterns don't have those, but they have less of those "complex" motions.
It's not what I want to call them, it's what they are. I learn both too.
In open pattern competitions this might be true, but only where the judges don't have a good understanding of Keumgang. And competition isn't everything as far as forms are concerned. Pattern comps are a little too concerned with aesthetics in my view.
I would dispute this. There are differences in how patterns are performed for competition and how they are performed for grading and application purposes. I don't think there's any difference in the amount of power that could potentially be put into each movement.
I disagree. There's no stipulation in WTF competition rules or from Kukkiwon about keeping the body and hips straight. Waist twist is a key principle of KKW TKD and features specifically and heavily in the forms.
Just because a movement doesn't look flashy doesn't mean it isn't complex. I've practiced Keumgang over and over for more than a decade and it's still very challenging to perform correctly.
I'll give you that keumgang is a decency hard pattern to do, just because of the balance checks and the perfection of the mouton blocks. But I still stand but my opinion that Keumgang is not a very good pattern.
I am sorry you feel that way. It speaks of a sense of superiority. I won't say arrogance, because I don't know you specifically. But it is almost as if you are saying the form is beneath you. Or at least that is how you are coming across in this thread. When I test for my next belt I expect to perform each form to the best of my ability and hope that my GM will determine that the effort is worthy of a sixth dan performing the form. Whether or not the form is Kee Cho Il Boo or Sipjin.
If a form seems basic, then you truly see the skill of the practitioner when they make that "basic" form seem powerful. When our GM introduced the Kukkikwon black belt forms, I remember watching him demonstrate Taebek and thinking it was something to behold. I have as of yet to see any of our masters perform it at his level.
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