Won Hyo 'Scoop' block

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by Gnarlie, Jul 3, 2014.

  1. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    At the top end of Won Hyo returning towards the start position, there are two separate low scooping blocks. What has been taught to you about the intended purpose and performance of this block?

    Especially: what chamber position have you been taught?
  2. Ivor

    Ivor Member

    interesting question Gnarlie, makes you think about the technique all over again.
    i was always taught that it is circular motion for catching a low front kick and throwing it up and to the side, or trapping the kicking leg in the crook of the elbow.
    i was taught to chamber with the blocking arm starting low to the side and behind you with the reaction arm crossing the upper body to the opposite shoulder.
    what is your take on the purpose of the block? and did i understand correctly when i explained the chamber position?
  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Thanks Ivor. The Chang Hon forms are relatively new to me, as I'm primarily involved with Kukki TKD. However, I've been learning the Chang Hon series over the past few years. What's interesting is that with movements like this one, across several different organisations, schools, arts and timescales, you can find 100 different ways that it's performed, and another 100 proposed applications.

    I've seen it chambered with both arms stretched out to the sides, or one arm behind as you describe. I've seen it scooping low using a knee bend to go extra low, and I've seen it performed just as a normal outward middle block. I think people are modifying the form to fit the application that they visualise.

    Personally, based on the common features of the motion across organisations, it looks like a scoop of a rising kick as you describe, possibly incorporating a kick capture with the reaction hand and a standing knee bar / manipulation. The front kick that follows then has a clear and vulnerable target.
  4. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    It's not called a scooping block, its a circular block in Won Hyo, scooping block appears in GeBaek.
    Gnarlie likes this.
  5. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Thank you Chris. Is there a difference in intent?

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    It can also be 2 separate blocks, one for a low front kick and the other for a mid section punch from another attacker.
    Gnarlie likes this.
  7. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    That seems to be the Encyclopedia application, yes. A sort of windscreen wiper style block to clear anything from low to middle.
  8. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    The scooping block in Ge Baek is primarily designed to lift an attack with 2 outcomes. Re-directing the attacking angle by lifting also shortens the range, thus greatly reducing the power from the attack. Of course there are other angles of execution.
    The circular block, say for defending against a front kick both lifts and re-directs to the side changing the angle of the attack, the added benefit of this defense is the lifting effect will overstretch the landing of the attacker and make them vulnerable for counter. The execution must be at an angle of 45 deg to the side this is to ensure that when blocked, the leg is forced away and the opponent has their back exposed. Finishing the circular block too far around to the side, leaves the opponent right beside you and in a better position to recover.
  9. Ivor

    Ivor Member

    Well done Chris - i knew the block he Gnarlie meant and didnt pick up on the terminology......bad ivor:eek:
  10. Ivor

    Ivor Member

    Well done Chris - i knew the block he Gnarlie meant and didnt pick up on the terminology......bad ivor:eek:
  11. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Yes, I don't know the ITF Terminology at all, so scooping block was my description. Circular block is in the Encyclopedia now I've looked it up.
  12. NoBullShitFighting

    NoBullShitFighting Active Member

    An Palmok Dollimyo Makgi - Inner forearm circular block

    The chamber is very similar to arae magki in kukkiwon way of performing the block. If you see competitions you'll see this, but with slightly more crossing with the arms. This pattern is very similar to the second heian form of shotokan Karate. It is actually a form that goes back way longer than that, all the way back to China and India. Especially the first sequenceses of the pattern is prevelant in most forms of martial art system, like Taebaek of the Youdanja forms.

    However, when people use this in traditional formal and fixed one-step sparring you'll often see it just used to block a straight punch. Wich is a horrible application because you have so many better options, it is simply done because it looks cooler as the movement is bigger.

    Here are some of my applications:

    Attacker makes the mistake of not bringing the leg in before performing a roundhouse kick. You bring your blocking hand up and hit the soft spot above the ankle of your opponent with the hard bone of your wrist as you block. Lead leg is in the direction of the force of the kick in case you need to make angles in order to get out of the range of maximum kicking power. The block is to the side, meeting the leg before it gets to close to your torso.

    Attacker makes the mistake of throwing a telegraphic straight or haymaker. Block goes up on the inside of the attackers arm, strikes down ward in a 45 degree angle hitting the bicep and stretching those muscle fibers.

    My favourite application is:

    Attacker does a mid front kick (orum kaunde apcha busigi) or a liver kick (pit chagi), or a low kick towards you thigh. Foot goes back to protect the thigh muscle from kick. forearm comes under the attackers foot and brushes it to the side, making the opponent either cross his legs, or angle.

    Further the lead hand can come under the blocking arm, grabbing the opponents arm/clothing on shoulder/ back of shirt opening for the head/ ear, basicly anything that is good for controlling attackers point of balance, the further you get away from the head, the more dependent you are on a good 45 degree downward pull. Other hand comes down over attackers chest and neck in a 45 degree downward push, so that he is bent over backwards and his point of balance is underneath the lumbar region of the spine. Thus completing the movement of the technique.

    From here you could lock his head in your armpit with you blocking hand and lock him by controlling his torso by applying weight with your other hand. You could knee him in lumbar region of the spine, collapsing the disks on top of each other creating a prolapse pressuring on his leg nerves. Or break their spine entirely by dropping them on your knee. If they try to roll towards you in order to get our of the grip it leads them right into a piledriver. If they try to twist they run the risk of breaking their own neck. It is a very dominant position to for you. They could try to grab your balls, but it is very difficult because the arms don't want to go that way, while you have perfect access to just lift them up by their genitals, to wich the automatic response is to curl up.

    In sparring, after redirecting his kick you would go for the front kick and straight punch, because you want to close the gap instantly. Opponent is either out of balance because of crossed legs, or angled with you on the outside. Best option for opponent would be jumping horsekick to adjust himself and that requires some distance. He can pretty much only re-adjust to cancel it out so you want to get in with a flurry of punches and let him out when he has lost control of the guard in order to get him with a kick to the face, you'll see this frequently done in ITF sparring. It is knock out material and a frequently used strategy in the stand-up arts in general. Steve Vick is probably the one on top of my head I've seen do this. I also saw a MMA fight where a old fillipino doctor, traditional martial artist background, used a similar strategy, he won the fight and pretty much dominated the octagon.

    So that is how I see that entire sequence of An Palmok Dollimyo Makgi, orum kaunde apcha busigi and orun gunnun so kaunde jirugi.
  13. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    I'm still wondering how this is possible?
    Perhaps if I give you my concerns, you can address them.
    First, the motion of the block at the level for a low front kick is inward toward the middle of the body. It seems that this would just re-direct the kick to another target, if not then the kicking leg lands between the line of your feet and places the attacker face to face.
    Second, a low front kick would only be blocked with an arm if you were defending from the ground. I'd still use my feet to check anyway, if this was the case.

    Third, the motion of the block, has a trapping effect on a front kick, this would slow you down to block a mid punch.....
    If you were blocking a low front kick then a mid punch you would use 2 different blocks.

    RTKDCMB Active Member

    First of all when I say low front kick I mean to the groin. Secondly if you block to the outside your opponent would be turned side on. Lastly I would personally would probably just use a low section block with the front hand rather than block across my body but the other block would still be an option.

    If I were using it to trap the leg then the second part of the block would just be used for tossing the leg aside which is why the other hand comes up to the guarding position so it is ready to do a separate block for the mid section punch.
  15. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    ....never mind.
  16. Matt

    Matt Member

    We call this block circle block since it makes a circle when performed correctly. The hand you want to block with should start above your head with the opposite hand reaching down like a low block. Then using your hips you swing your top hand down while the one that was low crosses over to your opposite shoulder. Then you take your hand that is now low and swing it across like a middle block while returning the hand at your shoulder to chamber.
    There are two applications of this technique, two blocks and a block and throw. You can use it to block a low front kick and then block a punch that follows the kick. the other application is to block the kick then catch the leg in your elbow and throw it to the side.
  17. Matthias F. Duelp

    Matthias F. Duelp New Member

    in my opinion it is pretty hard to scoop any good frontkick up and to the side - you'll lift that kick right into your face I fear. One simple application: If held at the wrist with both hands, or, basically the same thing, punched in the face you could lower your elbow and turn your inner arm to the outside. That opens a way for a kick to the leg (doesn't matter which one) and, as advised by the pattern, a solid punch to the head of the opponent, which should be on momtong-level by now ...
  18. Chris J

    Chris J Active Member

    Try then to imagine yourself stepping back into a defensive posture and executing the circular block, leave it wit ya!

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