WTF patterns

Discussion in 'Taekwondo Patterns' started by Matt, Dec 3, 2015.

  1. Matt

    Matt Member

    I am not sure ow many of you are certified under Kukkiwon, but if you are what rank? I am certified for fourth, well I will be. My paperwork has been sent in and I'm just waiting for it to be processed. But, i you're apart of Kukkiwon do you like or dislike the changes to the WTF patterns that were just made recently? I know up through Pyongwan and I must say, that I can't trick my mind into doing Koryo differently because I've been doing it one way for about 7 years.
     
  2. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    First, forever I guess. I dislike it the first time they introduce it, because it changes the way poomsae was designed for. But then I think I could explain both old and new one, the how and why, to my students so there would be no problem after all. The old way can always be regarded as poomsae with self defense involved, while the new one is poomsae with beauty attached :D

    I know it's hard to change, it takes me 6 months or so even just to change my stance. Let alone the ability to have imaginary enemies when executing certain techniques because in the new poomsae, sometimes grabbing or striking movement becomes lower than it should be if executed for real. Take for example, the pyojeok jireugi in koryo. The standalone technique is to grab the enemy's hair (or whatever head part you can grab) then punch the face deeply (I remember one of my instructors said to punch so deep that your enemy will faint immediately). In the new poomsae, this becomes lower than the collar but you still hit your own palm, I really can't imagine the real execution. Even if you grab your enemy's clothes, hitting your own palm afterwards is illogical (what do you hold with that? You wanna hit the clothes?). Dankyo tok chigi fits better for that situation.
     
  3. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    That depends what 'changes' you mean Matt. Do you have any examples?
     
  4. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Mario, your example from Koryo has been hansonnal momtong bakkat makki since at least 2006, when the last Kukkiwon Textbook was published. I believe the textbook from the 1970s also specifies momtong...often what people think are changes are just unfortunate cases of their instructor not being perfect.
     
  5. Matt

    Matt Member

    I know you people like to use Korean terms but I dont know any of them.... For me the biggest change is in Keumgang. Following the mountain block is a turn with an inner fore arm wedging block then it used to be move the outside foot in and execute a double down block. Now it has been changed to an inner forearm wedging block, then no movement in the feet and you rise and execute a double hammer fist behind you slow. Other changes are in Koryo when you come to the second we call it a break.... uhh right before you turn to execute the knife hand strike palm down followed by the down block, you now keep your hands open as they move apart and close the left hand on impact. You used to be able to keep the left hand in a fist since it was in a fist from the previous elbow strike.
     
  6. Matt

    Matt Member

    Kukkiwon also changes the patterns like every few years, so instructors may not be up to date on application and techniques
     
  7. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    And the movement after that is? I didn't argue about the that one, it was and always hansonnal momtong bakkat makki, but the pyojeok jireugi is not supposed to be momtong. My instructor taught me to grab the head by extending my arm higher after that makki (we practice the pattern by breaking down the movement series and execute it one by one, with partner). Even if the attack was apkubi momtong jireugi the enemy's head position won't be as low as momtong (it's actually at the lower olgul which is very close to upper momtong, but still qualifies as olgul, not momtong). Note that this differs from palkup pyojeok chigi done in taegeuk 5, which is correct to have it as low as momtong because the previous yeop chagi to the trunk will normally make human lowers down his upper body as a reaction to reduce damage, thus making the head as low as momtong.
     
  8. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    The pyojeok jireugi has also been momtong since at least 2006 and very probably earlier according to the textbook. I have earlier versions of the textbook but they are not in Germany with me so I can't check that, but the 06 edition has momtong.
     
  9. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member


    Keumgang has been a slow low wedging block after the middle wedging block for as long as I can remember. The foot has always and still moves from juchum seogi horse stance to naranhi seogi parallel stance. They are not hammer fists. The old KKW textbooks and videos show this going back 15 years at least. Nothing has changed there.

    Koryo, that arms up motion has also been hands open with the left hand closing as it reaches shoulder level for at least the last 15 years, as the old videos and textbook show it.

    As I said, respectfully, instructors are not always perfect.
     
  10. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Not often and not big details. There have not been many changes since 2006, and even then it was small things like the stance for hammerfist in 5 Jang.

    Confusion arises because the KKW definitions exist, and WTF competition guidelines exist for scoring. The WTF guidelines are much more detailed and stringent, but are not necessary for people who are not competitors. The KKW definitions will do. Sometimes this can cause mixed messages, but never to the degree that we are seeing here.

    Instructors and their sources are simply not getting good information here.

    If you want to be bang up to date, buying GM Ik Pil Kang's new book is a good idea.
     
  11. Mario Ray Mahardhika

    Mario Ray Mahardhika Active Member

    How is that explained then? I mean, the application of that particular movement. What do you grab? What do you punch?
     
  12. Matt

    Matt Member

    And I am going to tell you that these are changes made like this current year. My master was one of the 160 to be selected to go to the Kukkiwon Poom/ Dan certification course and these are the changes that were made
     
  13. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    They are not changes, is what I am saying. That is the way I have always done them, and the way that they have been specified by KKW since at least 2006. Then again, I do have strong links to Kukkiwon, and Korea, and anything that does not conform to standard has been long since trained out of me.
     
  14. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Essentially, it is easier for an instructor to say 'this has changed' than 'I have a new understanding of the existing movement and my previous understanding was incorrect.'
     
  15. Matt

    Matt Member

    you dont understand.... Learned all the patterns one way and now they have changed
     
  16. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    That happens. Except they don't really change, your instructor's understanding of them does. Seriously.
     
  17. Matt

    Matt Member

    no seriously,you're wrong on this one
     
  18. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Give me some more examples of what you think has changed, and I will provide evidence that it hasn't if possible...
     
  19. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    keumgang pre 2006 - note the slow arae hecheo makki

    keumgang circa 2009 when the KKW Dartfish DVDs were published - note the slow arae hecheo makki

    from the old 80's VHS tapes I used to have. Note the slow arae hecheo makki.

    GM Kyu Hyung Lee's videos from about 4 or 5 years ago. Note the slow arae hecheo makki.

    Do you believe this has changed?
     
  20. Gnarlie

    Gnarlie Well-Known Member

    Whatever is sensible. Poomsae are not intended to be that literal, they teach principles. Such as the principle of following one successful hit with another using proprioception.
     

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